foot positioning

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Adam
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foot positioning

Post by Adam »

Let's see if we can get some reasons for doing what we do, again.
In uechi, the classic stance is sanchin, where the front foot is turned towards the center. What is the reason for turning your foot towards the center in sanchin?

Adam
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RACastanet
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Post by RACastanet »

Well, for one, you are coiling up the spring and creating some potential energy to drive your kicks.
Rich
Evan Pantazi
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Post by Evan Pantazi »

Adam San,

Hiding the accessable and dangerous nerves of the inner leg.

Focusing all energies and motion potential toward their centerline.

Developing a wedge or triangular shape for stronger penetrating or deflective application.

The forward and 45 degree mobility is substantially increased (poised as a runner at the start line).

Groin and Bladder protection.

Increased Chi Flow (I know some of you people don't believe in chi, please don't take this post there again).

And it just looks cool.



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Victor
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Post by Victor »

Evan,

As an Isshinryu (and tai chi) practioner, I practice Sanchin stance as well as Seisan (the Isshinryu front stance) Stance.

Seisan Stance is essentially the same stance as Sanchin with the front foot straight, and is the major stance of the Isshinryu system. But in practice, if I’m stressing the upper body application of technique in all our kata and applications, I tend to shift into Sanchin.

I believe your points are well taken, but I find the delivery of kicking techniques somewhat inhibited by Sanchin. (I agree this might be a personal limitation but it is based on my studies.)

The Seisan stance with both feet starting parallel, permits an easier delivery mechanism for lower body techniques. Although, this might be the factor of the range of the Isshinryu kicking techniques, or in the more important use of the Isshinryu stepping and shifting techniques to use for ‘Downing the Opponent’ <credits to Dr. Yang Jwing Ming>.

What I find is Isshinryu’s front stance delivers both capabilities. For upper body defense/attacks you can easily shiift into Seisan by rotating on the ball of the front foot. This does “Developing a wedge or triangular shape for stronger penetrating or deflective application: Developing a wedge or triangular shape for stronger penetrating or deflective application” as you state.

Of course the same can be done shifting from Sanchin into the Isshinryu Front Stance (Seisan) as required, too.

I see the entire need of stance, to shift into the appropriate angle of attack/defense and then drive the response for power and focus.


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Victor Smith
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Bill Glasheen
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foot positioning

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Evan

Beautiful post. But I use western chi ;-)

Actually I'm not entirely being "cute". Evan and I often see eye to eye, but use different paradigms to describe the same pheonomenon.

Victor

Interesting assessment of sanchin vs. "seisan" stance.

Actually I have also learned two versions of a stance with the feet over the same spots on the floor. Rotating the feet out, one can go from sanchin to one with the front foot straight forward and the back foot out 30 degrees. This is basically an equal 30 degree rotation out of both legs. This is called a renoji dachi. It is the easiest and most natural stance to do from that foot position, and has very little internal tension. You see both aikido and kobudo practioners using that stance.

I think your problem with the sanchin stance and kicking comes from not understanding how to use the stance. One cannot deliver an effective front kick in sanchin by leaving the support leg "as is". Rich alluded to having potential energy built up in the legs. It's sorta like snapping your fingers. Without creating some built up tension, you cannot get the snap. Sanchin affords the same kind of built-up energy, but one needs to let the support leg rotate out to take advantage of this. Sooo....in your "seisan" stance, you are basically arriving at a similar endpoint, but not taking advantage of the pre-stretch and spring action.
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Bill Glasheen
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foot positioning

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Adam

Actually there's one other advantage not yet mentioned.

If (and I mean IF) you want to hold your ground in sanchin, there is a way to dig in with this stance like no other. Basically you turn your heels out to an extreme, Grab with your heels and big toes, and then "screw" your feet out as if you were threading your feet into grooves in the ground. With the right surface and the right conditions, you can grab onto the ground almost like the way a bug can grab onto glass.

- Bill
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Post by Evan Pantazi »

Victor San,

Point well taken on Seisan, I practice a Ryukyu Seisan as well and am familiar with the position you state. Another thought is that Sanchin does not employ kicks as does the Seisan, that could indicate that it is the stance for augmenting superior hand technique.

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Victor
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Post by Victor »

Bill,

I appreciate your comment, and all your points are well taken.:

You wrote:“ I think your problem with the sanchin stance and kicking comes from not understanding how to use the stance. One cannot deliver an effective front kick in sanchin by leaving the support leg "as is".”

“ Rich alluded to having potential energy built up in the legs. Sanchin affords the same kind of built-up energy, but one needs to let the support leg rotate out to take advantage of this. Sooo....in your "seisan" stance, you are basically arriving at a similar endpoint, but not taking advantage of the pre-stretch and spring action.”

Of course I hadn’t thought of it as a problem in that after 25 years of stressing Seisan, I find it works for me, but I belive I see your point.

In my standard Isshinryu practice, Sanchin is a minor study, Seisan is the workhorse. There is some question as to what Seisan really came from too, in my mind. It well may have been a modification from Sanchin by Shimabuku Tatsuo, our founder.

About 12 years ago several Ueichi Brown Belts joinged my program and I began to apprecite the Ueichi developments. We found the basics of the systems were very compatable.

What I was already finding in my kobudo kata, I was often shifting into Sanchin for greater Weapon control for all the previously stated reasons.

As I reflect on when I shift towards Sanchin, as I’ve been doing lots of work on energy alignment in tehcnique, I’m almost always stressing the upper body techniques. As far as the lower body, after several decades of work, I doubt I’ll make any significent changes, but I’m sure I’ll reserach the issue.



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Victor Smith
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Post by Victor »

Bill,

Another thought on the roles of Seisan and Sanchin in my practice and teachings.

I’m a big believer in finding the application of kata technique by “Taking the Next Step”.

Simply execute the technique and finish with the next lower body movement. Almost a certainty to drop the opponent with a sweeping takedown.

As Isshinryu utilizes the cressent step, that next step becomes a sweep for unbalancing the opponent. Where my practice naturally uses the Seisan Stance for the opening, when executing the takedown, invariably I’m swtiching to Sanchin for the hook into their lower leg.

In my mind, this is one of the most powerful tools in utilizing karate for self defense. In conditions of extremis, we may well be unable to get a clean stroke into our opponent. But there probably will be enough force to unsettle them permitting the lower body sweep contianed in the kata to drop them.

Of course this is a rather simple treatment of a complex subject, But stances and alignment in correct kata practice are the key for developing the power to make this work too.



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Victor Smith
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Post by student »

I hope David Elkins joins in and corrects what I post. *g*

I don't know Uechi. I do practice Wing Chun. It appears to me (David E.: Help!) that Sanchin and Yeung Ma (No. 2 adductor) stances are very similar, if not actually identical.

There are far more variations of Wing Chun than I would have believed a few years ago. The two major ones, to my knowledge, are those of Grandmasters William Cheung and Leung Ting.

Dr. Ting's stance would be the classic Yeung Ma/Sanchin, with the knees and feet pointed in. GM Cheung's points the knees in, but the feet remain parallel for better mobility.

I was taught to think in terms of the stance being like a spring that could absorb incoming motions and propel outgoing motions. Example: Stand facing the opponent in Yeung Ma. Opponent punches with his right to your face. You parry his right across his body (left bong sao, right fook sao, left pak sao - not important for this example) and twist clockwise while so doing.

You may continue your twist and retrurn the energy, plus interest, with a straight punch or hooking punch with your left. Or, you may rebound the coiled spring effect with your right in a straght fist, hand heel, uppercut, overhand hammer, etc.

(Certainly your defense would have been improved by footwork as well, shifting out of the line of attack and putting weight into your counters. But the question was the utility of the stance.)

Kicking is not stressed, and it is mostly close in, in combination with hand traps and/or strikes. The Yeung Ma stance supposedly protected one from a front kick to the groin, though shifting, getting out of the way, blocking, or scooping the incoming leg would be my descending order of preference of techniques over dependence on Yeung Ma to guard the groin!

Not an Uechi perspective; hopefully still helpful.


Student

[This message has been edited by student (edited 12-09-99).]
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Bill Glasheen
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foot positioning

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Student

This is all very relevant, as the styles come from the same area in China and have some similarities in stance and technique emphasis. Actually I've gotten some of my more interesting applications of Uechiryu kata moves by doing (si lum tao) and/or watching Wing Chun techniques.

- Bill
Gilbert MacIntyre
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Post by Gilbert MacIntyre »

If I may join in:
My focus on the stance is more to Bill's post on stability. I originally found it difficult to move out of the stance for a kick, but that seems to be a faint memory now. I also have come to believe that if anything is to be compromised it is offence and never defence. When I am teaching the strength of the stance to junior ranks, I apply pressure to one arm and then walk around them all the time pushing in against them. Once I reach the opposite arm I turn around and go back. I tell them to feel the different points and parts of their feet that are resisting the pressure. It is very much like a tripod. When confronted by someone who wants to stand in front of you putting you down before they actually start hitting, the stance is a foundation that is unsurpassed when it comes to firing that person across the room. Quite often the minimal amount of movement required to do this will cause your bully to re-assess his next move, if not it gives you a second to get ready, you're already in great stance.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Anthony

First of all....great video clip. And shame on you for giving away these "secrets".

Bobby Campbell taught me this in 1988 I believe. I use this in the Dan Kumite #6 takedown. Add the two hands (this technique is actually from sanseiryu) and you have a complete motion that the person cannot escape from. Without this extra leg help, I would not be able to take the big boys down. Now I have a great technique with built-in redundancies.

Needless to say, I have been doing this and have had it done to me for over a decade. It doesn't really work by stressing the knee. It works via the leverage you get on the leg by pinning the foot with yours. It's difficult to see with the MPEG, but that is accomplished by employing the very foot-turn-in that is the primary subject of this thread. With foot pinned, one leans on the side of the leg at a higher point with one's shin. Having a bony shin helps (Ouch!), but is not necessary. The defender is just not able to resist forces on the leg from that direction. Again, combine it with the hand movements and you end up with an inescapable takedown that transitions to a controlling leg grab. Ask Uncle Evan for some good points to whack on (with your hands) in the takedown and you've added even more fun to the technique.

- Bill
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Bill Glasheen
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foot positioning

Post by Bill Glasheen »

Anthony

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
How come I never see anyone in Sanchin when they are doing Kumite?
I know you originally asked Gilbert this question but...start a new thread and ask this question in general. I have plenty to say on this, and I'm sure others would too.

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RickLiebespach
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foot positioning

Post by RickLiebespach »

Two more reasons (that I didn't notice anyone mentioning) for having the front foot turned in, would be to reduce the vulnerability of the toes, and the knee.

If someone slides their foot straight in at you, and you foot is straight, then the toes could be jammed or broken.

Also, if someone kicks at your knee, with your foot turned, you will have better absobing ability and there-by reduce the chance of a knee injury.

Of course this assumes that the attacker is in front...not of the the side which the toes are pointing towards.

Almost all of our practice is done in this stance...even kumite. Even so, I still (after a year of study), find my back foot doesn't stay in form.

Rick Liebespach

[This message has been edited by RickLiebespach (edited February 02, 2000).]
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