Instructors and Board Members,
It appears that there are several ways in which different groups go about the voting preceedures involved in passing or failing Dan Candidates.
In Uechiryu there was a format that had points for each category in which the passing range had some fluctuation in it. It appears that most have gone to expediting the promotionals by "open" voting. Subjective to peer pressure amoung other weeknesses.
It is my understanding that some groups still impliment the original format in which voting is balleted on paper, not vocal.
It is further understood that some groups require the "entire" test requirements to be viewed by "all" test board members. I feel that this is a better solution for maintaining higher standards. Why is it that in some testing groups only "one" or possibly "two" test board members decide on pass or fail for Dan Kumite and Seisan Bunkie ? Surely this does not set well with me. Also the original low points involved in the Dan Kumite do not seem to have set enough importance as to that portion of the test.Some groups have modified it. I believe we all should.
Some instructors whom i've spoken with run their own private Dan Testing for they feel that the regional testing is not "sufficient". I tend to agree.
How does your group conduct the Dan Testing ? Uechi or not ! If expediting
the testing is for the purpose of saving time, possibly three or four test periods a year may serve better so as all candidates can perform "complete" fullfillment of all requirements for all board members to vote on.
The point system voting in closed ballad appears to be the fairest most valuable way of doing Dan Testing. How do you feel ?
------------------
Gary S.
Dan Test Voting Proceedure
Moderator: Available
-
Gary Santaniello
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph Ma USA
Dan Test Voting Proceedure
If you are to have objective based "standards" testing then please post what you consider the standard for compentency for shodan.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dan Test Voting Proceedure
Gary
Having only sanchin, designated kata, and sparring viewed by all test board members on tests is strictly an issue of time. I'm not saying it's a good thing; this is merely a practical consideration at large tests.
I've been involved in a lot of tests and I have seen them run many different ways. I've seen and been a part of very intimate tests with only one or two senior seniors as test board members. These can be quite informal and interactive. I've been involved with tests run the "traditional" way with little pieces of paper passed down the line to a scorekeeper. I've been a part of tests where there are custom scoring mechanisms with room for comments and tallying by computer program. Then I've been involved in those where there is voting "by hands" after the test is over. Each format has its strengths and weaknesses.
The most important things is for competent teachers to send properly-prepared students to the dan test.
I agree with you that the traditional dan test format is wanting (Mattson, Uechiryu Karatedo, pg 482). Five percent for dan kumite? No wonder it gets short shrift. In my kyu testing, I like to conduct separate tests where people do nothing but bunkai and yakusoku kumite. I believe they are that important. I don't let people spar in my dojo until they demonstrate satisfactory performance in prearranged, Uechi-style sparring (even if these can use improvements).
I agree that there is peer pressure involved when you have group votes. I've been at such tests where outsiders don't have a chance to sway the group, but Mr. New England's students from a well-known dojo can slip by with a little talking from the sensei. This doesn't serve anyone well.
In spite of the "threat" of students getting their feelings hurt or dojo owners risking losing face and paying students, the best long term good is accomplished by all when a board isn't afraid to fail people who don't meet objective standards. The short term pain is considerable, but worth it. And as boring and painful as it can seem for long-time teachers, the seniors need to be personally involved in testing.
I've seen great good come of recent tests at the camp. One year a whole bevy of students were failed in the middle-dan ranks. It was probably the best thing that happened for everyone involved. The next year (last summer), I witnessed a testing process and student quality that was showcase. If you expect excellence, you will eventually get it.
- Bill
Having only sanchin, designated kata, and sparring viewed by all test board members on tests is strictly an issue of time. I'm not saying it's a good thing; this is merely a practical consideration at large tests.
I've been involved in a lot of tests and I have seen them run many different ways. I've seen and been a part of very intimate tests with only one or two senior seniors as test board members. These can be quite informal and interactive. I've been involved with tests run the "traditional" way with little pieces of paper passed down the line to a scorekeeper. I've been a part of tests where there are custom scoring mechanisms with room for comments and tallying by computer program. Then I've been involved in those where there is voting "by hands" after the test is over. Each format has its strengths and weaknesses.
The most important things is for competent teachers to send properly-prepared students to the dan test.
I agree with you that the traditional dan test format is wanting (Mattson, Uechiryu Karatedo, pg 482). Five percent for dan kumite? No wonder it gets short shrift. In my kyu testing, I like to conduct separate tests where people do nothing but bunkai and yakusoku kumite. I believe they are that important. I don't let people spar in my dojo until they demonstrate satisfactory performance in prearranged, Uechi-style sparring (even if these can use improvements).
I agree that there is peer pressure involved when you have group votes. I've been at such tests where outsiders don't have a chance to sway the group, but Mr. New England's students from a well-known dojo can slip by with a little talking from the sensei. This doesn't serve anyone well.
In spite of the "threat" of students getting their feelings hurt or dojo owners risking losing face and paying students, the best long term good is accomplished by all when a board isn't afraid to fail people who don't meet objective standards. The short term pain is considerable, but worth it. And as boring and painful as it can seem for long-time teachers, the seniors need to be personally involved in testing.
I've seen great good come of recent tests at the camp. One year a whole bevy of students were failed in the middle-dan ranks. It was probably the best thing that happened for everyone involved. The next year (last summer), I witnessed a testing process and student quality that was showcase. If you expect excellence, you will eventually get it.
- Bill
-
Gary Santaniello
- Posts: 288
- Joined: Thu May 06, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Randolph Ma USA
Dan Test Voting Proceedure
Tracy,
You asked me to post what i consider the standard of competency for shodan. I will be happy to get into that topic of disscusion on another post that i will start. However, here i am simply asking of board members/instructors what formats of testing they use so as to see how people like yourself feel is the "better" way of testing for all "Dan Ranks" as to eliminate peer pressure, rushed testing,
high standards, and fairness to all.
I do have my own ideas as i expressed however, i'll ask in another way. How do you or your group conduct Dan Testing ? Do you feel that it is the "best" way of testing ? If you could change some of the format, what would you like to see differently ?
As Bill stated, he has been involved in many different types of testing done in different ways. I have only been i a few.
I support a closed ballet point system over an open voted pass or fail. How about you ?
Bill, thank you for the responce, however, i might ask, which do you feel is the "better" way of formatting Dan Testing" from your multiple experiences ?
I guess one could say that i am looking for some agreement that my veiws on testing have agreement with others ?
The Boards i have been sitting on use a "hand showing" pass/fail. Dan Kumite & seisan bunkie are not veiwed by all. One area i feel uncomfortable with.
Seeing that there are several areas of importance in "Dan Testing", i would like to address each area one at a time.
I hope to express my opinion and concerns in a non-confrontational mannor, asking that other instructors and board members do the same. I will start a new post "Dan Test Requirements" followed by the area of disscussion. Example "Sanchin". in that we may possibly disscuss what we expect or want to see in that particular part of testing.
Then i would like to post another aspect of testing such as "Dan Kumite" to be disscussed. etc, etc, Hopefully, i will not open up a can of worms, however, i would like some responces on this post as to my original questions.
Respectfully,
------------------
Gary S.
You asked me to post what i consider the standard of competency for shodan. I will be happy to get into that topic of disscusion on another post that i will start. However, here i am simply asking of board members/instructors what formats of testing they use so as to see how people like yourself feel is the "better" way of testing for all "Dan Ranks" as to eliminate peer pressure, rushed testing,
high standards, and fairness to all.
I do have my own ideas as i expressed however, i'll ask in another way. How do you or your group conduct Dan Testing ? Do you feel that it is the "best" way of testing ? If you could change some of the format, what would you like to see differently ?
As Bill stated, he has been involved in many different types of testing done in different ways. I have only been i a few.
I support a closed ballet point system over an open voted pass or fail. How about you ?
Bill, thank you for the responce, however, i might ask, which do you feel is the "better" way of formatting Dan Testing" from your multiple experiences ?
I guess one could say that i am looking for some agreement that my veiws on testing have agreement with others ?
The Boards i have been sitting on use a "hand showing" pass/fail. Dan Kumite & seisan bunkie are not veiwed by all. One area i feel uncomfortable with.
Seeing that there are several areas of importance in "Dan Testing", i would like to address each area one at a time.
I hope to express my opinion and concerns in a non-confrontational mannor, asking that other instructors and board members do the same. I will start a new post "Dan Test Requirements" followed by the area of disscussion. Example "Sanchin". in that we may possibly disscuss what we expect or want to see in that particular part of testing.
Then i would like to post another aspect of testing such as "Dan Kumite" to be disscussed. etc, etc, Hopefully, i will not open up a can of worms, however, i would like some responces on this post as to my original questions.
Respectfully,
------------------
Gary S.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Dan Test Voting Proceedure
Gary
I believe it's best to commit the test board members to scores that they pass to a scorekeeper. Then if they want to haggle later on as a group, that's fine. There are many ways to conduct such scoring systems, operating on both fixed and floating scales. But committing to the score makes each individual exercise a decision not influenced by others. It also increases the likelihood that a bad student will not be passed.
It's useless having individuals making decisions about the candidate overall if they have not at least seen written scores for individuals in smaller group evaluations. I don't believe parts like prearranged kumite or even hojoundo should be a "gimme". Each part is an important reflection of the whole. If such smaller group evaluations are to be conducted, I believe they should involve more than one judge unless you are talking about a couple of godan candidates. I felt quite comfortable having Art Rabesa evaluating Manny Neves and I on dan kumite and seisan bunkai at my godan test. I felt in good hands, and we were going to go after each other with or without judges anyhow. Art was helpful in commenting on our strengths and shortcomings.
At the last camp promotional, the format was rather interesting. They had the kata done at a public ceremony on Saturday night. But all the mundane things like hojoundo and bunkai were done earlier in the day where there could be a lot of personal interaction. I don't think anyone would have been sent to the final test that evening if they didn't look good. This is similar to a format I use for kyu ranks where I have something I call a "mid-term". On the mid-term I test for all bunkai, prearranged kumite, and hojoundo. Sparring is deemphasized until the group goes past this part of the cycle. Then at the end, the students are tested for kata, conditioning, sparring, and questions. The final test ends up being both quick and tidy.
- Bill
I believe it's best to commit the test board members to scores that they pass to a scorekeeper. Then if they want to haggle later on as a group, that's fine. There are many ways to conduct such scoring systems, operating on both fixed and floating scales. But committing to the score makes each individual exercise a decision not influenced by others. It also increases the likelihood that a bad student will not be passed.
It's useless having individuals making decisions about the candidate overall if they have not at least seen written scores for individuals in smaller group evaluations. I don't believe parts like prearranged kumite or even hojoundo should be a "gimme". Each part is an important reflection of the whole. If such smaller group evaluations are to be conducted, I believe they should involve more than one judge unless you are talking about a couple of godan candidates. I felt quite comfortable having Art Rabesa evaluating Manny Neves and I on dan kumite and seisan bunkai at my godan test. I felt in good hands, and we were going to go after each other with or without judges anyhow. Art was helpful in commenting on our strengths and shortcomings.
At the last camp promotional, the format was rather interesting. They had the kata done at a public ceremony on Saturday night. But all the mundane things like hojoundo and bunkai were done earlier in the day where there could be a lot of personal interaction. I don't think anyone would have been sent to the final test that evening if they didn't look good. This is similar to a format I use for kyu ranks where I have something I call a "mid-term". On the mid-term I test for all bunkai, prearranged kumite, and hojoundo. Sparring is deemphasized until the group goes past this part of the cycle. Then at the end, the students are tested for kata, conditioning, sparring, and questions. The final test ends up being both quick and tidy.
- Bill
