An interesting post on Cyberdojo got me to thinking about our stances. . . especially after Glasheen Sensei engaged me in the topic elsewhere. I notice lots of teacher emphasize the hardness of the posture and stance in Sanchin and the rest of their Uechi-ryu. I try to emphasize strength, but not the "nailed to the floor" hardness I see in most dojo. I wonder how everyone feels about this subject, especially after reading the following post on the subject. GEM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I think I understand what you are saying. If we are both suspended in the air by strings our strikes would loose most of their power. My hitting you wouldn't be very effective as you would simply move away from me and I would move away from you.
That is indeed my point, Ian.
I agree with you but there is another dimension to this. If you are in a good stance and strike me with 100% of your available power, it will hurt me more if I am also in a good stance than if my feet were not on the ground. (This is the reason hockey players jump into the air when they are about to receive a bodycheck.)
Hockey, my favorite sport. Maybe you played it also? Another twist on this...if so, have you ever jumped just before a bodycheck, and caught the 'inertia' going the wrong way? You end up getting smeared! Your point is a good one. The direction of the forces at impact is critically important. e.g.; Gretz always managed to read/feel the direction of the inertia to minimize impact.
What we are talking about is inertia. The tendency of objects to want to maintain their present course. Inertia is a very important concept in collisions and fighting is all about collisions. If I have a good stance I use the inertia of the earth to allow me to hit you harder. If you also have a good stance the inertia of the earth forces you to absorb all of my strike.
I agree with that. However this is where the plot thickens, so to speak.The timing of the 'rooting' in combination with a kazillion other things makes this a very dynamic situation. The point I tried to make to another person on this same thread, is that the rooting only takes place for a millisecond. When that does take place, it allows my hips/body to 'do their thing' and *KBLAAM*! We exchange energy. Being able to develop that, without even appearing like your 'firmly rooted' is key in ones training. Does that make sense?
A good illustration of this is a person being struck by a car. If the person jumps up at the last minute he will have less inertia and will get hit, fly back and probably get a bunch of bruises. If the person doesn't jump, he will have greater inertia and will get hit harder, get knock back and will probably break bones and suffer severe injuries. He may still survive. Now, if that person is between the car and another parked car when hit he will have the inertia of the striking car AND the inertia of the parked car causing his body to absorb all the energy. HE AIN"T GOING MAKE IT, DOCTOR!!
Good point. For the most part I agree. But again (sorry, not to sound like a 'geek'), the shape of the 'front clip' of the car, directional forces, how high one can jump, closing speed, density of the impact points, acceleration blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc.
So this is our puzzle. How do we maximize this concept when striking and minimize it when being struck? There are lots of ways, it is simply a matter of knowing what they are and using them to your benefit. (Hitting your opponent when he rushes in is a perfect example)
This could get ugly. ;-) I guess one of the points to discuss would be maximizing power. This is where we get into 'hips' again. If someone is struck with explosive force (in our School we refer to this as fajing) I have a feeling that the exchange would end quickly. Again, we are moving away from 'arm' punches, and into hitting someone with your 'whole body', using the arm/fist as a conduit. And yes, in agreement with your response to Victor, that does transgress from linear, to circular.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited February 17, 2000).]
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
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Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
student must feel nailed to floor. to learn fly from inertia.
Sensei Morgie
Sensei Morgie
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
Quite true, especially in the morning before my first cup of coffee....
Sigh. More training....
student
Sigh. More training....
student
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Allen M.
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
George Sensei,
You are one of the few who can be trused explicitly in martial arts wisdom. On the surface, you seem to teach so much different than Canna Sensei, but one can easily combine the thoughts and words each of both of you into one coherent complete understanding, which often points to the same thing, including your stance on stance.
To me, a stance is only a thing of the moment, and is as much a concept as it is an atlas of the rest of a karateka. I can tell how a person is doing in his kata by looking ONLY at his feet, and nothing else. You need not look elsewhere to find excellence or lack thereof.
The movements and positions of the feet, and how he moves them hold the inner secrets of a person's kata. More importantly, it tells a story of that individual's personality, in which the kata is merely only a manifestation of; nothing more -- nothing less.
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Allen, now at his new website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm
You are one of the few who can be trused explicitly in martial arts wisdom. On the surface, you seem to teach so much different than Canna Sensei, but one can easily combine the thoughts and words each of both of you into one coherent complete understanding, which often points to the same thing, including your stance on stance.
To me, a stance is only a thing of the moment, and is as much a concept as it is an atlas of the rest of a karateka. I can tell how a person is doing in his kata by looking ONLY at his feet, and nothing else. You need not look elsewhere to find excellence or lack thereof.
The movements and positions of the feet, and how he moves them hold the inner secrets of a person's kata. More importantly, it tells a story of that individual's personality, in which the kata is merely only a manifestation of; nothing more -- nothing less.
------------------
Allen, now at his new website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm
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mikemurphy
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Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
Sensei,
I agree with Allen and say that the "hard" stance is a thing of the moment. The body should be developed to harden and focus on that split second of extension, or on the moment of impact on you. The rest of the body does the same thing. It remains loose and comfortable to that point where you need it; otherwise, your are simply wasting engery.
Another point would be strength. In order to collect strength for the technique, three things must occur: connection to the floor, thrusting motion with either arms or legs, and using the hips in delivering techniques. My goal is to put those three things together.
mike
I agree with Allen and say that the "hard" stance is a thing of the moment. The body should be developed to harden and focus on that split second of extension, or on the moment of impact on you. The rest of the body does the same thing. It remains loose and comfortable to that point where you need it; otherwise, your are simply wasting engery.
Another point would be strength. In order to collect strength for the technique, three things must occur: connection to the floor, thrusting motion with either arms or legs, and using the hips in delivering techniques. My goal is to put those three things together.
mike
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
>>The body should be developed to harden and focus on that split second of extension, or on the moment of impact on you. The rest of the body does the same thing. It remains loose and comfortable to that point where you need it; otherwise, your are simply wasting engery.<<
I agree with this. Yet it is paradox of my training. I find I defeat myself in kata in a way I don't do in freestyle. I focus only on myself in kata and tighten. I focus on the other in freestyle and I generally tighten and loosen up accordingly to need.
I have to practice kata more.
david
I agree with this. Yet it is paradox of my training. I find I defeat myself in kata in a way I don't do in freestyle. I focus only on myself in kata and tighten. I focus on the other in freestyle and I generally tighten and loosen up accordingly to need.
I have to practice kata more.
david
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Bill Glasheen
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Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
Did anyone notice how easily these folks could have fallen into the trap of using nondescript Chinese jargon (like qi), but instead used physics to describe the concepts involved? And even when he used a Chinese equivalent (fajing), he gave a rather nice description. It warms my heart. Maybe we in the U.S. might move out of the last-place position among industrialized nations in knowledge of math and physics in the school-age population. Just maybe... And then just maybe we might all be able to speak the same language. But I digress.
With apologies to those that refuse to let go... I still respect your karate.
Yes, George, this touches on what I was talking about a bit.
Just last night I was experiencing both positive and negative benefits of some of the concepts invovled. I am a lean, mean 180 pounds. Lately my most frequent prearranged kumite partner has been a (now) 330 pound behemouth of a man. And this brown belt with former martial arts experience (who used to be able to dunk a basketball before he got the sumo build) is starting to get very good. Scary, in fact.
Usually when I face folks like Tony, I tend to be light on my feet and flow in the direction of powerful techniques when they come at me. But I've had Tony since a white belt and he has been giving me the opportunity to develop some toughness as his power increases. So often I'll do leg conditioning with him while standing my ground just to absorb the energy for my personal development. Mama mia! On occasion I get a little sloppy, and get hurt. Last night I sprained an elbow doing a sloppy one-armed block of his spinning hook kick in dan kumite (we do an "old" version of #3 as a dojo #7). I had forgotten that his spinning hook kick sucked, and I worked on it with him for an hour. I had forgotten that this fellow fixed it. Ouch! Again, normally I am light and float with the technique as I block it. Last night Tony and I were feeling our testosterone and were getting into the clashing. But...with a 2 to 1 weight differential, you can get hurt if your technique isn't perfect. Sometimes its best to not be The Rock of Gibraltar.
Very interesting stuff.
Hey Gary-san, wanna help develop a future champion?
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited February 18, 2000).]
With apologies to those that refuse to let go... I still respect your karate.
Yes, George, this touches on what I was talking about a bit.
Just last night I was experiencing both positive and negative benefits of some of the concepts invovled. I am a lean, mean 180 pounds. Lately my most frequent prearranged kumite partner has been a (now) 330 pound behemouth of a man. And this brown belt with former martial arts experience (who used to be able to dunk a basketball before he got the sumo build) is starting to get very good. Scary, in fact.
Usually when I face folks like Tony, I tend to be light on my feet and flow in the direction of powerful techniques when they come at me. But I've had Tony since a white belt and he has been giving me the opportunity to develop some toughness as his power increases. So often I'll do leg conditioning with him while standing my ground just to absorb the energy for my personal development. Mama mia! On occasion I get a little sloppy, and get hurt. Last night I sprained an elbow doing a sloppy one-armed block of his spinning hook kick in dan kumite (we do an "old" version of #3 as a dojo #7). I had forgotten that his spinning hook kick sucked, and I worked on it with him for an hour. I had forgotten that this fellow fixed it. Ouch! Again, normally I am light and float with the technique as I block it. Last night Tony and I were feeling our testosterone and were getting into the clashing. But...with a 2 to 1 weight differential, you can get hurt if your technique isn't perfect. Sometimes its best to not be The Rock of Gibraltar.
Very interesting stuff.
Hey Gary-san, wanna help develop a future champion?
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited February 18, 2000).]
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Allen M.
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
I dunno, David. Your kata looks good to me...
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Allen, now at his new website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm
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Allen, now at his new website http://www.ury2k.com/pulse/index.htm
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Gilbert MacIntyre
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Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
The hard/soft part of this system is one of the hardest concepts to accept.
I also had a hard time totally understanding this, although I repeated it often, told the uninitiated about it, I really didn't have a handle on it. I was taught the meaning of this was to be hard on the outside and soft on the inside. Further to that I was instructed you could find the hard/soft in breathing and movement and other ways, that all seemed to make sense but never registered in such a way that I said "I've got it, and can apply it to all aspects of my training" This is not to say these ways were incorrect just that they didn't let me see what I had to understand.
As I studied I realized that all martial arts are labelled either "hard" or "soft". Dealing with hard linear strikes/moves or soft circular moves. With this knowledge I could now see how both were in Uechi. It seemed at once I could see where each was and why I would want to use one more than the other at times.
I have since started telling students of shodan rank or better to look at things this way, and each of them seem to look at me with the same look and wait for a second and then say" right, I never thought of it that way".
To speak to an earlier post I too enjoy using the huge young guns looking to make a name as conditioning partners. Yes sometime I must move, but mostly I love the look on the faces of the really strong ones who are used to having their way with people in the ring when they throw their best kick and bounce off. They certainly take a renewed interest in their own conditioning.
I also had a hard time totally understanding this, although I repeated it often, told the uninitiated about it, I really didn't have a handle on it. I was taught the meaning of this was to be hard on the outside and soft on the inside. Further to that I was instructed you could find the hard/soft in breathing and movement and other ways, that all seemed to make sense but never registered in such a way that I said "I've got it, and can apply it to all aspects of my training" This is not to say these ways were incorrect just that they didn't let me see what I had to understand.
As I studied I realized that all martial arts are labelled either "hard" or "soft". Dealing with hard linear strikes/moves or soft circular moves. With this knowledge I could now see how both were in Uechi. It seemed at once I could see where each was and why I would want to use one more than the other at times.
I have since started telling students of shodan rank or better to look at things this way, and each of them seem to look at me with the same look and wait for a second and then say" right, I never thought of it that way".
To speak to an earlier post I too enjoy using the huge young guns looking to make a name as conditioning partners. Yes sometime I must move, but mostly I love the look on the faces of the really strong ones who are used to having their way with people in the ring when they throw their best kick and bounce off. They certainly take a renewed interest in their own conditioning.
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
Very much along the same lines...
After paying 'lip service' to the 'half-hard half-soft' concept for years, I 'discovered' it experiencially...
Two specific incidences come to mind. The first was while drilling the 'cross block' a number of years ago against shin-round kicks. I was working with a guy who was very strong, but who paradoxically seemed to be all bone. It was generally accepted that working out with him for any kind of conditioning (or anything else for that matter) would inevitably result in bruises - this had been my experience as well. As we started working on this particular day, I realized that as his kicks were impacting on my arms, I was being moved a couple of inches to the side. Initially, I was disgusted with myself - I couldn't 'maintain my sanchin' if I was being bodily moved sideways. As I was contemplating this, it occurred to me that not only was I still in a good sanchin kamae each time after I received his kick, but my arms didn't feel as if I had been hit with a baseball bat...
The other, very similar story involves sparring with a TKD guy who had more than a passing relationship with steroids. Perhaps as a result, this monster would come to this particular sparring class each week out for blood. The vast majority of the other folks there were Uechi guys some of whom were quite intimidated by this guy's attitude and his head-hunting (not me of course, I was cool as a cucumber)
Anyway, one day while sparring with this guy, my distancing was off, and he caught me solidly in the stomach with a jump spinning back kick. I realized with surprise that I wasn't lying on the floor writhing in pain, but rather was still on my feet, about three feet back from where he hit me, and not in any pain! As I stood there, momentarily amazed (although still with my hands up - I'm no fool), I realized this guy was just staring at me. He asked "wasn't that a solid kick"? Without missing a beat, I responded with something along the lines of it being a fine kick, and that I would rather have not gotten hit with it... I am also pleased to note that bad attitude or not, this seemed to take considerable wind out of his sails for the remainder of the match.
greg
After paying 'lip service' to the 'half-hard half-soft' concept for years, I 'discovered' it experiencially...
Two specific incidences come to mind. The first was while drilling the 'cross block' a number of years ago against shin-round kicks. I was working with a guy who was very strong, but who paradoxically seemed to be all bone. It was generally accepted that working out with him for any kind of conditioning (or anything else for that matter) would inevitably result in bruises - this had been my experience as well. As we started working on this particular day, I realized that as his kicks were impacting on my arms, I was being moved a couple of inches to the side. Initially, I was disgusted with myself - I couldn't 'maintain my sanchin' if I was being bodily moved sideways. As I was contemplating this, it occurred to me that not only was I still in a good sanchin kamae each time after I received his kick, but my arms didn't feel as if I had been hit with a baseball bat...
The other, very similar story involves sparring with a TKD guy who had more than a passing relationship with steroids. Perhaps as a result, this monster would come to this particular sparring class each week out for blood. The vast majority of the other folks there were Uechi guys some of whom were quite intimidated by this guy's attitude and his head-hunting (not me of course, I was cool as a cucumber)
Anyway, one day while sparring with this guy, my distancing was off, and he caught me solidly in the stomach with a jump spinning back kick. I realized with surprise that I wasn't lying on the floor writhing in pain, but rather was still on my feet, about three feet back from where he hit me, and not in any pain! As I stood there, momentarily amazed (although still with my hands up - I'm no fool), I realized this guy was just staring at me. He asked "wasn't that a solid kick"? Without missing a beat, I responded with something along the lines of it being a fine kick, and that I would rather have not gotten hit with it... I am also pleased to note that bad attitude or not, this seemed to take considerable wind out of his sails for the remainder of the match.
greg
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Fedele Cacia
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Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
Hey Greg,
I also remember sparing with that guy, but I wasn’t as lucky as you; I nursed a chest injury for about three weeks. But I fought on because
"I am also as cool as a cucumber".
What ever happened to that guy?
[This message has been edited by Fedele Cacia (edited February 18, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Fedele Cacia (edited February 18, 2000).]
I also remember sparing with that guy, but I wasn’t as lucky as you; I nursed a chest injury for about three weeks. But I fought on because
"I am also as cool as a cucumber".
What ever happened to that guy?
[This message has been edited by Fedele Cacia (edited February 18, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Fedele Cacia (edited February 18, 2000).]
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
It's a challenge and even fun to spar guys like him once in awhile. It provides a constrast to what I struggle with in kata. While there are defense and offense contained, it just feels like forced offense to me. I don't know why this is. Playing with guy like that, there is an external focus that I could relax myself into, like there is no me... Just him. It really is a mind thing.
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited February 18, 2000).]
david
[This message has been edited by david (edited February 18, 2000).]
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Kevin Mackie
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Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
Bill, ..about not being the rock of Gibraltar.
Several weeks ago Art Rabesa Sensei (rock of G cubed), demonstrated that yielding to a blow works better than trying to take the shot.
The point being that although you can condition to a high degree, yet go soft and yield when the time comes. Mike mentioned about hard/soft at the moment of need.
The hard/soft part of this system is one of the hardest concepts to accept.
Kevin
Several weeks ago Art Rabesa Sensei (rock of G cubed), demonstrated that yielding to a blow works better than trying to take the shot.
The point being that although you can condition to a high degree, yet go soft and yield when the time comes. Mike mentioned about hard/soft at the moment of need.
The hard/soft part of this system is one of the hardest concepts to accept.
Kevin
Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
These are interesting thoughts. I do agree that while we are focused to a large degree on conditioning our bodies into Uechi beings to take blows, the real magic of Uechi conditioning also encompasses the idea of taking attacking energy down through the course of least resistance. This is where our art begins to become reminiscent of things like Wing Chun and Tai Chi with rootedness, sunken and tucked hara, elbows in, shoulders down, etc.
Blocking hard is better than getting hit, but turning the attacking energy into whiffs of whipped butter, now that is martial artistry! Of course, this level of execution is difficult and requires total mind and body coordination.
Even better than moving, is the ability to absorb and move without yielding, leaving us attainable counter potential to go in and get us some more! Uechi attitude!
JohnC
Blocking hard is better than getting hit, but turning the attacking energy into whiffs of whipped butter, now that is martial artistry! Of course, this level of execution is difficult and requires total mind and body coordination.
Even better than moving, is the ability to absorb and move without yielding, leaving us attainable counter potential to go in and get us some more! Uechi attitude!
JohnC
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Gary Santaniello
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Hard - Soft in Uechi-ryu
Mike.
An excellant explanation of body mechanics. Certainly kata's done in that fashion are the most enjoyable to see and "feel" the best to do.
David.
If you are having difficulty with this in your kata, possibly we may spend a little more time practicing it that way ? It does take time and practice to get it feeling right, especially if one is not accustomed to it.
It was many years for me to get that feeling into kata. Now it is in everything. Great stuff !
If i remember correctly, last week at The Hut" you mentioned that you don't really practice kata much ? Possibly i am reffering to the wrong David as i did the wrong Paul in another post ? (smile) if so i appologize.
Keep trainning !
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Gary S.
An excellant explanation of body mechanics. Certainly kata's done in that fashion are the most enjoyable to see and "feel" the best to do.
David.
If you are having difficulty with this in your kata, possibly we may spend a little more time practicing it that way ? It does take time and practice to get it feeling right, especially if one is not accustomed to it.
It was many years for me to get that feeling into kata. Now it is in everything. Great stuff !
If i remember correctly, last week at The Hut" you mentioned that you don't really practice kata much ? Possibly i am reffering to the wrong David as i did the wrong Paul in another post ? (smile) if so i appologize.
Keep trainning !
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Gary S.
