It's interesting that none of the "common sense" proponents are saying "I used to be hugely overweight but then I started eating right and exercising more and, presto, I became my buff self".
Oh well, I guess there won't be any new light shed on this topic here. Like I said on my original post on this thread, we as martial artists tend to be poorly equipped to help people with this often intractable problem. The best we can do for cronically over weight folk who come to us is to tell them that we really don't know much about it, but they are welcome to get what ever they can from the training we offer.
I'm delighted to see Glasheen Sensei has not been idle since his first resistance training post. Even in simply defining terms in that post he has already cleared up some muddy areas for me. Look out for his part two this week!
Food fight
Moderator: Available
Food fight
Amen Fedele! I haven't changed the way that I eat (for better or worse), have returned to the gym and find that I'm gaining weight.
Feeling stronger but slower, Steve
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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
Feeling stronger but slower, Steve
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D. Steven White
swhite@umassd.edu
Food fight
When I was talking about lowering my body fat I was reffering to the super intense training I used to do before a competition. The reason I and everyone else gain the weight back is because it is physically impossible to keep up that level of metabolism for any longer than 3 or 4 weeks. If I tried my body would begin to deteriorate and eventually I would die. Thats what my doctor says, anyway. I agree with those out there who say that if you are truly obese it is your own fault. My argument is that we can not always look like Greek Gods all the time. If we are to help "fat" MA's then we must first get them to see the futility of "questing" after something that is unobtainable. Also we are not all metabolically the same. I used to know a guy in his 30s who exercised twice as hard as i did but could never manage to get rid of the last few inches on his gut. Our internal programming is different in each of uf just as all fat people are usually over weight in different bodily proportions. People lose weight and regain it differently according to their own genetic code. The are generalities to losing weight but at the final stages of our quest to get where we want to be it is very individualistic. The hard part for most people is that they never even hardly get off of the ground because they are sent off on an emotional tangent by the false assurances and bad advice of most fittness professionals. Also people who are overweight and have never exercised usually suffer from a confidence problem as well. Its hard to sell them on anything because theyve been "jipped" by so many funky diet schemes and "gauranteed" weightloss fads that they are very apprehensive about trying anything and-and rightfully so. Sure eating right and exercise WILL help you lose weight. But these methods and messages must be purprted to society with a realistic system of goals so as not to disscourage those who would partake of those methods.
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maurice richard libby
Food fight
it would be best if we all remember that for males in their 30's the optimum BF level is about 15-16% and in their 40's is a little higher. For women it's a little higher. That's according to the people who did the last two fitness tests i did (this wasn't at a commercial gym --the information came from the Federal (CDN) Department of Health) You don't generally have a "six pack" until your fat levels are around 10%.
Now, when I'm around 15%, I don't feel my best, but that's prabably some kind of social conditioning, but I don't worry too much about it.
maurice
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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
Ronin at large
Now, when I'm around 15%, I don't feel my best, but that's prabably some kind of social conditioning, but I don't worry too much about it.
maurice
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maurice richard libby
toronto/moose jaw
Ronin at large
Food fight
Glasheen Sensei,
Thanks for the educated and informative response. Yes "lifestyle" is an important concept. I think some martial arts teachers teach a "way of life", no?
Individuals CAN take control of their own lives, but it takes practice and work, and you need to develop a love for working out and for reasonable portions of healthy foods.
Thanks for the educated and informative response. Yes "lifestyle" is an important concept. I think some martial arts teachers teach a "way of life", no?
Individuals CAN take control of their own lives, but it takes practice and work, and you need to develop a love for working out and for reasonable portions of healthy foods.
Food fight
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ken Read:
It's interesting that none of the "common sense" proponents are saying "I used to be hugely overweight but then I started eating right and exercising more and, presto, I became my buff self".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mr. Read,
I am really glad you brought this up. I have a perfect example - who inspired my current mindset. I started a new job last July. One of my new co-workers would always bring his lunch. The lunch always consisted of one sandwich, a yogurt(which he always sprinkles granola on), a piece of fruit, a bag of low-fat chips(usually baked corn chips) or a snack. He always brought a lunch and was very disciplined about it. He is very "buff".(squats 400 lbs!) I also learned that he does weight training four times a week, and runs for 30 min after his weights. He plays basketball, football and softball. (a sport for three out of four seasons.)
I would always get lunch out. A large chicken parm sandwich, a bag of "real" chips etc. Well, come to find out, throughout this guy's youth he was a very fat guy.(300 lbslbs) then he became anorexic. Then he saw a doctor who straightened his ass out. He started studying exercise and fitness and became a personal trainer. He set me up with a resistance program which I have been on now for 8 months. I also run 30 min after the weights. I also watch my "fuel" intake more carefully now. I have improved my fitness level tremendously, and will continue to. No more excuses for me! He taught me that, bless his once fat(now very athletic) ass. The information is out there.
One more point; when he was teaching me weights he said "You are easy to teach - because you really want to learn" Iknow what he means, but I am not easy to teach because I am motivated. I am self-motivated because I have a disciplined mind, and once I make up my mind to do something I do it with fervor - I do it right - I finnish the fight! Guess what? I was not always like that.karate taught me to be that way. That is the benefit of martial arts as they relate to fat loss/muscle gain. I am glad I met this former fatty, he is a great friend who has really changed my life.
It's interesting that none of the "common sense" proponents are saying "I used to be hugely overweight but then I started eating right and exercising more and, presto, I became my buff self".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mr. Read,
I am really glad you brought this up. I have a perfect example - who inspired my current mindset. I started a new job last July. One of my new co-workers would always bring his lunch. The lunch always consisted of one sandwich, a yogurt(which he always sprinkles granola on), a piece of fruit, a bag of low-fat chips(usually baked corn chips) or a snack. He always brought a lunch and was very disciplined about it. He is very "buff".(squats 400 lbs!) I also learned that he does weight training four times a week, and runs for 30 min after his weights. He plays basketball, football and softball. (a sport for three out of four seasons.)
I would always get lunch out. A large chicken parm sandwich, a bag of "real" chips etc. Well, come to find out, throughout this guy's youth he was a very fat guy.(300 lbslbs) then he became anorexic. Then he saw a doctor who straightened his ass out. He started studying exercise and fitness and became a personal trainer. He set me up with a resistance program which I have been on now for 8 months. I also run 30 min after the weights. I also watch my "fuel" intake more carefully now. I have improved my fitness level tremendously, and will continue to. No more excuses for me! He taught me that, bless his once fat(now very athletic) ass. The information is out there.
One more point; when he was teaching me weights he said "You are easy to teach - because you really want to learn" Iknow what he means, but I am not easy to teach because I am motivated. I am self-motivated because I have a disciplined mind, and once I make up my mind to do something I do it with fervor - I do it right - I finnish the fight! Guess what? I was not always like that.karate taught me to be that way. That is the benefit of martial arts as they relate to fat loss/muscle gain. I am glad I met this former fatty, he is a great friend who has really changed my life.
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Food fight
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
But seriously....sometimes I am outrageous in the forum to get an effect. Hidden in vernacular language at the end of my own glib post was my personal feelings <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
But here are a few of my observations:
* The obesity epidemic (reported in the medical literature) in the United States (and perhaps elsewhere) has to do with several factors: busy lifestyles, lack of knowledge, and better access to food who's primary redeeming value is taste.
* Anything that is thought of as a "diet" is a waste of time. We in the martial arts should understand that. Any "six week program" designed to teach you how to defend yourself or learn how to fight is doomed to failure. The key word missing from most peoples' vocabulary is lifestyle.
* Most people don't understand the importance of the basal metabolic rate. It is the reason why "diets" fail. Starve yourself and your BMR drops. This is what helped our species survive through periods of feast and famine. A low BMR translates to an increased capacity to pack on the pounds.
* Most people have a false sense of what is "ideal". Do not look in bodybuilding magazines or the "chic" mags. Trust me...those body types are not functional on the playing field. As was stated by Maurice, the athlete and the healthy individual needs some body fat. Professional women bodybuilders suffer from amenorrhea (loss of a period) and resort to plastic surgery to reclaim their lost breasts. Male bodybuilders only stay at competition weight for a few days. Is there something wrong here?
* An ideal body weight is not necessarily a healthy body. Please re-read that sentence. This is what bugs me about the idiotic Atkins diet. What a *&% *%$ fool! The other panel members at the conference ripped him to shreads, pointing out that there was nothing in the scientific literature supporting his claims that eating high protein, high fat diets and banning carbohydrates is healthy. While he makes millions at the bookstore, participants of that diet plan lose weight - in a constant state of ketosis. So you drop pounds and can fit back into your blue jeans. Great! But at what cost?
* The reason why there is an epidemic of obesity in this country is NOT because individual eating and exercise lifestyles fail. There are a number of "good" lifestyles out there. One is simple and works - be reasonable and live in moderation. The reason why there is failure is because MOST people are NOT in the gyms (consistantly) and most people are eating like crap 80% of the time.
* Being obsessed about diet and exercise can be just as deadly. As I have helped individuals with lifestyle problems revolving around excess weight and poor health, I have also dealt with a number of people who were extreme on the opposite end. At any one point in time, I can count one or two people in the gym I know personally who are taking diet and exercise to a potentially fatal extreme. This is particularly true with women, but men can be just as bad in their own ways. I have seen relationships lost over excessive time in the gym. I have seen women break down and cry because they couldn't do 500 situps on a given day. I have seen women from the gym who look great but...in the store buying laxatives. Moderation works many ways! You can be obsessed with ideal to an unhealthy end.
* Yes, several have their fingers on something very important. Denial isn't necessarily the answer. Lots of aerobics isn't the final solution. Resistance training to up the muscule mass (and bone density) is an important part of the whole lifestyle picture.
* Yes, I am serious about my own lifestyle, as those who know me can attest. I find it interesting that folks find it so unusual that I am so consistant about eating and living healthy. I am called a "body Nazi" at work. Huh? My son - at the tender level of first grade - is teased because he is the only kid in class who doesn't drink whole milk or doesn't care to eat hot dogs or hamburgers or go to McDonalds (the health food restaurant). From my perspective, I can see how others' insecurities can cause peer pressure that could thwart the best efforts of those who want to live reasonably. Our values in this country can be pretty screwed up some time! Must we all eat the same things, love our material things, and behave the same way?
But I rant...
- Bill
Wow...I go from "pedantic" to "glib" in one week. What range!This is a glib thread from what is usually a consistantly thoughtful and insightful forum.
But seriously....sometimes I am outrageous in the forum to get an effect. Hidden in vernacular language at the end of my own glib post was my personal feelings <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote
What has angered me about everything is the total lack of understanding. Am I the only one who understands what is going on? I don't think so, but there is plenty of ignorance out there on the topic. Thankfully I saw little morsels of wisdom here and there in the responses.eat your vegetables and get off your butt.
But here are a few of my observations:
* The obesity epidemic (reported in the medical literature) in the United States (and perhaps elsewhere) has to do with several factors: busy lifestyles, lack of knowledge, and better access to food who's primary redeeming value is taste.
* Anything that is thought of as a "diet" is a waste of time. We in the martial arts should understand that. Any "six week program" designed to teach you how to defend yourself or learn how to fight is doomed to failure. The key word missing from most peoples' vocabulary is lifestyle.
* Most people don't understand the importance of the basal metabolic rate. It is the reason why "diets" fail. Starve yourself and your BMR drops. This is what helped our species survive through periods of feast and famine. A low BMR translates to an increased capacity to pack on the pounds.
* Most people have a false sense of what is "ideal". Do not look in bodybuilding magazines or the "chic" mags. Trust me...those body types are not functional on the playing field. As was stated by Maurice, the athlete and the healthy individual needs some body fat. Professional women bodybuilders suffer from amenorrhea (loss of a period) and resort to plastic surgery to reclaim their lost breasts. Male bodybuilders only stay at competition weight for a few days. Is there something wrong here?
* An ideal body weight is not necessarily a healthy body. Please re-read that sentence. This is what bugs me about the idiotic Atkins diet. What a *&% *%$ fool! The other panel members at the conference ripped him to shreads, pointing out that there was nothing in the scientific literature supporting his claims that eating high protein, high fat diets and banning carbohydrates is healthy. While he makes millions at the bookstore, participants of that diet plan lose weight - in a constant state of ketosis. So you drop pounds and can fit back into your blue jeans. Great! But at what cost?
* The reason why there is an epidemic of obesity in this country is NOT because individual eating and exercise lifestyles fail. There are a number of "good" lifestyles out there. One is simple and works - be reasonable and live in moderation. The reason why there is failure is because MOST people are NOT in the gyms (consistantly) and most people are eating like crap 80% of the time.
* Being obsessed about diet and exercise can be just as deadly. As I have helped individuals with lifestyle problems revolving around excess weight and poor health, I have also dealt with a number of people who were extreme on the opposite end. At any one point in time, I can count one or two people in the gym I know personally who are taking diet and exercise to a potentially fatal extreme. This is particularly true with women, but men can be just as bad in their own ways. I have seen relationships lost over excessive time in the gym. I have seen women break down and cry because they couldn't do 500 situps on a given day. I have seen women from the gym who look great but...in the store buying laxatives. Moderation works many ways! You can be obsessed with ideal to an unhealthy end.
* Yes, several have their fingers on something very important. Denial isn't necessarily the answer. Lots of aerobics isn't the final solution. Resistance training to up the muscule mass (and bone density) is an important part of the whole lifestyle picture.
* Yes, I am serious about my own lifestyle, as those who know me can attest. I find it interesting that folks find it so unusual that I am so consistant about eating and living healthy. I am called a "body Nazi" at work. Huh? My son - at the tender level of first grade - is teased because he is the only kid in class who doesn't drink whole milk or doesn't care to eat hot dogs or hamburgers or go to McDonalds (the health food restaurant). From my perspective, I can see how others' insecurities can cause peer pressure that could thwart the best efforts of those who want to live reasonably. Our values in this country can be pretty screwed up some time! Must we all eat the same things, love our material things, and behave the same way?
But I rant...
- Bill
Food fight
J.D.,
Exactly!
Someday if I keep reading and writing I will be as articulate as you..... no wait, what was I thinking people can't improve themselves, I'm getting off line....maybe I'll watch the A-TEAM marathon on tv...
I get frustrated when in the midst of straining and "suffering" to build muscle and keep fat to a REASONABLE minimum - there are people all around me eating to excess, sitting on thier FAT yes FAT butts and saying "oh sure, its EASY for you!" NO ITS NOT! But I am learning to make it fun. No excuses!
Relating to your example of the fat family. I have a friend who is a career military officer. He was relating to me that his son(about 10 yoa) is kind of on the chubby side.(He's very pragmatic about this, does'nt "judge" the kid as some may want to believe.)
So he got the boy interested in sort of a junior-sailors program(the guy is NAVY) which involves some good physical fitness exercises.
He described the philosophy of the program like this; "the kid does'nt have to know why he is "screwed"-up, just that he is "screwed"-up, AND THIS IS HOW YOU UNSCREW YOURSELF!
I had to laugh. I think we could all use this philosophy from time to time. We "intelectuals" make things more complicated than they have to be to get the job done sometimes. As some have suggested "shut up and work out", but if you can't do that, then at least work out.
Exactly!
Someday if I keep reading and writing I will be as articulate as you..... no wait, what was I thinking people can't improve themselves, I'm getting off line....maybe I'll watch the A-TEAM marathon on tv...
I get frustrated when in the midst of straining and "suffering" to build muscle and keep fat to a REASONABLE minimum - there are people all around me eating to excess, sitting on thier FAT yes FAT butts and saying "oh sure, its EASY for you!" NO ITS NOT! But I am learning to make it fun. No excuses!
Relating to your example of the fat family. I have a friend who is a career military officer. He was relating to me that his son(about 10 yoa) is kind of on the chubby side.(He's very pragmatic about this, does'nt "judge" the kid as some may want to believe.)
So he got the boy interested in sort of a junior-sailors program(the guy is NAVY) which involves some good physical fitness exercises.
He described the philosophy of the program like this; "the kid does'nt have to know why he is "screwed"-up, just that he is "screwed"-up, AND THIS IS HOW YOU UNSCREW YOURSELF!
I had to laugh. I think we could all use this philosophy from time to time. We "intelectuals" make things more complicated than they have to be to get the job done sometimes. As some have suggested "shut up and work out", but if you can't do that, then at least work out.
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Shelly King
Food fight
Billy B
Hey no fair bashing those of us that opted to keep our fat butts on the couch and watch the A-Team marathon
...believe me, I paid for it in class last night.
JD
I have to agree with you ....again, such bad habits I pick up on this forum....it's genetics and it isn't. I'm genetically pre-determined to carry my weight on the lower half...unfortunately nothing on the upper half but I digress....but that doesn't mean I HAVE to be fat....it just means WHERE I'm gonna be fat.
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Shelly
Hey no fair bashing those of us that opted to keep our fat butts on the couch and watch the A-Team marathon
...believe me, I paid for it in class last night.JD
I have to agree with you ....again, such bad habits I pick up on this forum....it's genetics and it isn't. I'm genetically pre-determined to carry my weight on the lower half...unfortunately nothing on the upper half but I digress....but that doesn't mean I HAVE to be fat....it just means WHERE I'm gonna be fat.
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Shelly
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Food fight
I serendipitously ran across some articles today that support my notion that it is the lack of interest and effort - and not the failure of reasonable approaches - that cause the problems we observe today.
* Lifestyle choices alone account for 53.5% of early deaths (Corbin and Lindsey)
* 50% to 60% of Americans do not exercise on a regular basis (two separate references)
* If proper nutrition and regular exercise were practiced simultaneously, the number of dysfunctional years at the end of life span and percentage of early deaths could be greatly diminished (Ross and Rodriguez)
None of the references entertained the notion that there was a favored method of eating or exercise. The issue seems to be whether or not individuals choose to participate in the first place - "on a regular basis."
- Bill
* Lifestyle choices alone account for 53.5% of early deaths (Corbin and Lindsey)
* 50% to 60% of Americans do not exercise on a regular basis (two separate references)
* If proper nutrition and regular exercise were practiced simultaneously, the number of dysfunctional years at the end of life span and percentage of early deaths could be greatly diminished (Ross and Rodriguez)
None of the references entertained the notion that there was a favored method of eating or exercise. The issue seems to be whether or not individuals choose to participate in the first place - "on a regular basis."
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Food fight
J.D.
Congregating? Your euphemisms dazzle me!
And when they don't, then I'm told that I am an.... oh never mind.
- Bill
Congregating? Your euphemisms dazzle me!
And when they don't, then I'm told that I am an.... oh never mind.
- Bill
Food fight
Ya know....Shelly you say you are genetically predetermined to carry your weight in the lower quadrant and then JD starts calling everyone "children"....there's food for thought!!!! 
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Food fight
Having a low center in sanchin is virtue - not vice.
