I wrote:
<blockquote>The question is how reliable is that evidence in the context of lethal confrontations, the only equation that holds my interest here on this forum.</blockquote>
What I meant to say was "that holds my interest in this matter"
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Van Canna
Concentration or Awareness
Moderator: Available
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Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Concentration or Awareness
I too have enjoyed this thread. Yesterday I had lunch in Charlottesville after a kyu test. I lunched with a 3rd year medical student and a photography buff. We were chatting about this matter a bit. A few more comments.
1) In all endeavors, the vast majority of folks are mediocre. There are very few elite martial artists, soldiers, and police officers. Most are folks to whom many of the cautions that Van articulates apply. But what is ideal? What are the possibilities? What defines greatness in these endeavors under a range of conditions, and what capabilities do the best have? These are things that interest me. And I am far from having all the answers.
2) It looks like I'll need to paraphrase Van's quote above. So basically he's saying 'The question is how reliable is that evidence in the context of lethal confrontations, the only equation that holds my interest in this matter' I'm very glad Van brought this out. The three of us were discussing this very issue yesterday, and we realized that we have a very different perspective. Amazing how people can identify a critical issue simultaneously while in different states! Anyhow, we got into a discussion about risk and perceived risk. Ian brought up that the one profession where people are most frequently assaulted is......healthcare workers. And...unfortunatly you can't pull your sidearm out and blow them away, or deck them with an overpowering gross-motor body movement - even if they are an idiot. No, you must first keep from getting hurt, but then you must practice a gentleman's art of self defense and subject control. More importantly, you must learn skills that help you avoid the physical confrontation. In this arena I have enjoyed reading some of the Western-medicine-oriented targeted striking and manipulation techniques of Bruce Miller - a kyusho expert and heathcare worker himself. And what of the college student, or the suburbanite, or the aging boomer that works late in a big city? For the vast majority of folks, the real risk is of sub-lethal confrontations, and the best approaches and applications of martial arts involve a wide array of mental and physical skills something short of cracking your antagonist's skull. And the mindset is likely to be tense, but not the same as what Clarence fanced when at the other end of a gun. What were Okinawans training themselves for? What was the average Chinese training for? And who is more likely to pass on their genes and their stories?
Then again...I would never bring a shoken to a gun fight.
3) We talked a lot about the vision thing. Again, this is both physiology and metaphor. I have stated my physiology case clearly, and I believe there is still misunderstanding. What I am trying to articulate is very subtle. If you ever want to bone up on this, first get a basic book about photography that talks about things like the physics of light, aperature, focus, depth of field, film sensitivity, shutter speed, etc. And then you need to know about the physiology of the eye and vision. In the end, it is mostly an academic argument. I agree with most of what Van is saying, and it is the reason why I brought the whole head turning thing up.
But then this brings me back to the original point. Yes, I believe this thread started with one.
4) How does all of this relate to mindset, mushin, and focus vs. awareness? I'm sure we could go on and on. But then that's what these forums are about.
- Bill
1) In all endeavors, the vast majority of folks are mediocre. There are very few elite martial artists, soldiers, and police officers. Most are folks to whom many of the cautions that Van articulates apply. But what is ideal? What are the possibilities? What defines greatness in these endeavors under a range of conditions, and what capabilities do the best have? These are things that interest me. And I am far from having all the answers.
2) It looks like I'll need to paraphrase Van's quote above. So basically he's saying 'The question is how reliable is that evidence in the context of lethal confrontations, the only equation that holds my interest in this matter' I'm very glad Van brought this out. The three of us were discussing this very issue yesterday, and we realized that we have a very different perspective. Amazing how people can identify a critical issue simultaneously while in different states! Anyhow, we got into a discussion about risk and perceived risk. Ian brought up that the one profession where people are most frequently assaulted is......healthcare workers. And...unfortunatly you can't pull your sidearm out and blow them away, or deck them with an overpowering gross-motor body movement - even if they are an idiot. No, you must first keep from getting hurt, but then you must practice a gentleman's art of self defense and subject control. More importantly, you must learn skills that help you avoid the physical confrontation. In this arena I have enjoyed reading some of the Western-medicine-oriented targeted striking and manipulation techniques of Bruce Miller - a kyusho expert and heathcare worker himself. And what of the college student, or the suburbanite, or the aging boomer that works late in a big city? For the vast majority of folks, the real risk is of sub-lethal confrontations, and the best approaches and applications of martial arts involve a wide array of mental and physical skills something short of cracking your antagonist's skull. And the mindset is likely to be tense, but not the same as what Clarence fanced when at the other end of a gun. What were Okinawans training themselves for? What was the average Chinese training for? And who is more likely to pass on their genes and their stories?
Then again...I would never bring a shoken to a gun fight.
3) We talked a lot about the vision thing. Again, this is both physiology and metaphor. I have stated my physiology case clearly, and I believe there is still misunderstanding. What I am trying to articulate is very subtle. If you ever want to bone up on this, first get a basic book about photography that talks about things like the physics of light, aperature, focus, depth of field, film sensitivity, shutter speed, etc. And then you need to know about the physiology of the eye and vision. In the end, it is mostly an academic argument. I agree with most of what Van is saying, and it is the reason why I brought the whole head turning thing up.
But then this brings me back to the original point. Yes, I believe this thread started with one.
4) How does all of this relate to mindset, mushin, and focus vs. awareness? I'm sure we could go on and on. But then that's what these forums are about.
- Bill
-
Bill Glasheen
- Posts: 17299
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
- Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Concentration or Awareness
One more interesting point... There was another subtle thing we discussed over lunch yesterday.
* There are some functions - like those controlled by the autonomic nervous system - that are generally controlled by unconscious systems but trained individuals can develop some degree of conscious control. These would include things like the rate at which your heart beats.
* There are some functions - like those controlled with the skeletal system - that are generally controlled by conscious forces, or trained unconscious mechanisms. This would include getting out of bed in the morning.
* And then there are things that our unconscious system can do that cause our normally consciously controlled systems to act in an unconscious fashion. For instance if I take a hammer and bang on one of your fingers on the table, you will unconsciously yank the afflicted hand away and simultaneously throw the other arm forward in a very gross fashion. Or when a trained Uechika does a sanchin thrust, a spinal reflex will cause the biceps muscle to contract at the end of the thrust to prevent hyperextension of the elbow.
So...this can get really complex.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 07, 2000).]
* There are some functions - like those controlled by the autonomic nervous system - that are generally controlled by unconscious systems but trained individuals can develop some degree of conscious control. These would include things like the rate at which your heart beats.
* There are some functions - like those controlled with the skeletal system - that are generally controlled by conscious forces, or trained unconscious mechanisms. This would include getting out of bed in the morning.
* And then there are things that our unconscious system can do that cause our normally consciously controlled systems to act in an unconscious fashion. For instance if I take a hammer and bang on one of your fingers on the table, you will unconsciously yank the afflicted hand away and simultaneously throw the other arm forward in a very gross fashion. Or when a trained Uechika does a sanchin thrust, a spinal reflex will cause the biceps muscle to contract at the end of the thrust to prevent hyperextension of the elbow.
So...this can get really complex.
- Bill
[This message has been edited by Bill Glasheen (edited March 07, 2000).]
