What is striking here is that I find in my older age (not ready to retire yet) and with smaller schools that I am dramatically changing the way I teach. Yes, there are huge advantages to teaching large roomfuls of folks using standard karate training methods. But I find with smaller groups of young kids, that I often will do a few traditional exercises and then go over to the bag, do some applications, execute some exercise designed to illustrate a point, etc. Very interesting!
- Bill
Old ways vs New methods
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Bill Glasheen
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Old ways vs New methods
David sent me some photographs to go along with his article. GEM
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/karate/stancestudy.htm
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/karate/stancestudy.htm
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gmattson
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Old ways vs New methods
On a recent post we were discussing "horse", "Leaning", "Cat" stances and I mentioned that "old" Uechi did not refer to stances other than in general terms, such as "deep", "wide", "narrow" Sanchin. Once we started to adopt Japanese karate names for positions, our Uechi postures began to change. In today's Cyberdojo, Dave posted an article that discusses the modification of Okinawan karate as a function of it becoming popular. Dave gave me permission to reprint his post here. GEM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From: "David Gimberline"
Oyo Guide - Brief Historical Summary
Brief Historical Summary
"To search for the old, is to understand the new. The old, the new This is a matter of time. "
Excerpt from a poem by Master Funakoshi
In order to understand why we have lost some of the applications it is necessary to study some of the history and development of our style. This is sometimes difficult, as there is very little historical writings, photographs or other documentation before 1900. One must also be suspect of this early material, as there is a definite Japanese/Okinawan proclivity to present their history in the most positive light, regardless of reality.
Most confuse this with lying or exaggerating and see it as some form of character defect, but I've come to see it from a different light. Because of the cultural differences, most westerners do not think this way, but I believe the Japanese saw it as a moral obligation to present only the most positive version of their history and heritage. To do other would bring dishonor to their art, their mentors, and their history. This is why there are times when individuals of exceptional moral character report a version of history that seems to be less than exactly factual.
They are not suffering from a defect of some kind, they see it as doing their duty.
I have long been fascinated with the history and development of Shotokan and have read tons of info on it. I have also been working on application concepts for the last 15 years or so. Having done this study and reading and working with noted karate historian Patrick McCarthy a little, I have come to the following conclusions:
1) Historically, I divide karate development into three periods: i) Pre-Itosu (probably before 1905) During this time karate was taught in secret, one on one, was designed to be hard core self defense, and consisted of at least 50% grappling. Also incorporated or at least was taught in tandem with kobudo. ii) Itosu through Funakoshi 1940 With the introduction of teaching in the school system and teaching in public, karate became more civilized and more like we practice today. Funakoshi continued with Itosu's concepts and added kihon and kumite to match existing Budo. Began changing the art to match the expectations and spirit of the Japanese. This included endorsing the change in the spelling of karate. iii) After 1945 (or 1947) Vast majority of competent karateka were dead. Funakoshi (or those organizing karate, most notably Nakayama) started over with a clear picture of what they wanted to do. Modern day karate has been heavily influenced by Nakayama's introduction of competition aspect. The resultant art is highly refined, but it is also streamlined and homogenized.
2) Karate in Okinawa before being introduced to the public was taught in a radically different fashion than it is today. It was generally taught one on one and began with the defenses against common attacks with a partner. As these defenses where learned, the techniques were strung together so the could be practiced in kata form. These exercises where probably supplemented with body conditioning and tegumi drills.
3) Funakoshi probably DID know the applications to the movements he was doing, I believe he learned utilizing the above method. I also think after training for 45 years with the top masters in Okinawa and becoming president of the Okinawan Martial Arts Society, he couldn't possibly have NOT known these applications. (Although due to a recent fad of `Funakoshi bashing', it is popular to claim he didn't know them).
4) This extremely effective, individualized teaching method was not appropriate for teaching large groups, so Itosu introduced the idea of having the students copy the kata first. The main goal here was physical exercise and spirit training (the conversion of karate to a Budo), not practicality, and was approved because he convinced the school board it would produce superior soldiers. Also having practiced in secret their whole lives, Itosu and other masters where probably not too eager to hand out secrets to every Tom, Dick, or Hiroshi who came along.
Working primarily in the school system brought up safety concerns, so Itosu had the students close their fists. Itosu was a major influence the Okinawan MA and many students and contemporaries followed his example when they started to teach publicly.
5) When Funakoshi started teaching large groups in Japan, he used the only model available to him, which was created by Itosu. He wished for karate to become popular, so following the example set by Jigoro Kano, his sponsor and mentor, he copied the idea of uniforms and the kyu/dan ranking system (karate originally was entered into the Botukukai as a subsystem of Judo). Wishing to continue the adaptations necessary to create a new and separate `do' he developed kihon and kumite and eliminated the grappling aspects, choosing to emphasize striking (many of his original group were Judo & Jujitsu students, making it difficult (IMHO) to try to teach them grappling). There were contributions from many in getting karate accepted by the Botukukai and the public in general, including efforts by Konichi and Mabuni who were very respected. Funakoshi was, however the most visible and credible source for these changes in the in the minds of the Japanese martial artists and scholars due to the backing he received from Kano and the Royal Family, and his numerous articles in the Botukukai Journal circulated in Japan (and Okinawa).
6) At a 1936 meeting of masters in Okinawa, they were told that if they wanted to be excepted by the REAL Botukukai in Japan, they must conform to the new spelling of karate, the use of standard uniforms, kyu/dan ranks, and the three k's. In my opinion, Okinawans had an envy/hate relationship with the Japanese and most adopted these changes, while constantly criticizing the karate developing in Japan.
7) The development of kihon was one of the biggest death blows to applications (along with teaching groups). Once you taught a rising block or inside block in kihon, it gave the teacher to a standard to compare the technique to when teaching. So when they were told "this is a high inside block position" the students had in their mind that it was a block and that's what they taught their students, even if it's not really what their teachers meant to teach them (See section on Misunderstandings of oyo Due to the Development of Kihon).
8) Much of the intricacies of the art lost when teaching groups, especially in Japan where many were graduating from a college program with a competition aspect (strongly influenced by kendo competition), thinking they were now ready to teach. The college programs also suffered from a huge shortage of instructors. I believe Yamaguchi Sensei (the Shotokan one, not the Goju one (I hear Yamaguchi is like Johnson in Japan )) said as a 6th or 7th kyu, he was the highest ranking in his college club and he taught class until Funakoshi and his assistants could make it back around, which was about every three months. That was why everyone did the same kata for three months and why kyu exams were held every three months. (I also remember hearing the difference between the groups doing gohon rather than sanbon kumite was whether the dojo space was big enough to take three steps or five. :-) )
Why did Itosu and then Funakoshi and others make these changes to the art?
One reason is that karate was a dying art, and part of an Okinawan culture that was being replaced by Japanese and western ideas. Okinawa was being pushed towards becoming part of Japan proper and the Okinawans were looked down on by the Japanese (as hicks).
Itosu and Azato possessed a global awareness that was phenomenal in it's time. (Understanding the social/economical ramifications of the completion of the trans-Siberian railroad and forecasting the coming war, along with a familiarity of world military strategy (Itosu quoting the defeat of Napoleon to help his cause for public karate) is quite impressive for a couple guys on some backwater island in the late 1800's).
Being a patriotic citizen, Itosu may legitimately have wished to contribute to the Japanese society. I believe with the few inquiries from doctor's regarding the superior physique of karateka, his desire to save an art he loved, and his wish that a part of Okinawan culture be preserved lead him to push for the public teaching. His initial changes were to produce superior inductees for the Japanese military.
Funakoshi new the changes he was making were having a huge effect on the art. In 1943, in Karatedo Nyumon Funakoshi wrote, "it is no longer possible to speak of the karate of today and the karate of a decade ago in the same breath. =85even fewer realize that karate in Tokyo today is almost completely different in form from what was earlier practiced in Okinawa." He justified the changes, his attempts to popularize the art by saying, "If the way attracts a person to walk it, it flourishes; if not it wastes away".
Dave in Minnesota <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>From: "David Gimberline"
Oyo Guide - Brief Historical Summary
Brief Historical Summary
"To search for the old, is to understand the new. The old, the new This is a matter of time. "
Excerpt from a poem by Master Funakoshi
In order to understand why we have lost some of the applications it is necessary to study some of the history and development of our style. This is sometimes difficult, as there is very little historical writings, photographs or other documentation before 1900. One must also be suspect of this early material, as there is a definite Japanese/Okinawan proclivity to present their history in the most positive light, regardless of reality.
Most confuse this with lying or exaggerating and see it as some form of character defect, but I've come to see it from a different light. Because of the cultural differences, most westerners do not think this way, but I believe the Japanese saw it as a moral obligation to present only the most positive version of their history and heritage. To do other would bring dishonor to their art, their mentors, and their history. This is why there are times when individuals of exceptional moral character report a version of history that seems to be less than exactly factual.
They are not suffering from a defect of some kind, they see it as doing their duty.
I have long been fascinated with the history and development of Shotokan and have read tons of info on it. I have also been working on application concepts for the last 15 years or so. Having done this study and reading and working with noted karate historian Patrick McCarthy a little, I have come to the following conclusions:
1) Historically, I divide karate development into three periods: i) Pre-Itosu (probably before 1905) During this time karate was taught in secret, one on one, was designed to be hard core self defense, and consisted of at least 50% grappling. Also incorporated or at least was taught in tandem with kobudo. ii) Itosu through Funakoshi 1940 With the introduction of teaching in the school system and teaching in public, karate became more civilized and more like we practice today. Funakoshi continued with Itosu's concepts and added kihon and kumite to match existing Budo. Began changing the art to match the expectations and spirit of the Japanese. This included endorsing the change in the spelling of karate. iii) After 1945 (or 1947) Vast majority of competent karateka were dead. Funakoshi (or those organizing karate, most notably Nakayama) started over with a clear picture of what they wanted to do. Modern day karate has been heavily influenced by Nakayama's introduction of competition aspect. The resultant art is highly refined, but it is also streamlined and homogenized.
2) Karate in Okinawa before being introduced to the public was taught in a radically different fashion than it is today. It was generally taught one on one and began with the defenses against common attacks with a partner. As these defenses where learned, the techniques were strung together so the could be practiced in kata form. These exercises where probably supplemented with body conditioning and tegumi drills.
3) Funakoshi probably DID know the applications to the movements he was doing, I believe he learned utilizing the above method. I also think after training for 45 years with the top masters in Okinawa and becoming president of the Okinawan Martial Arts Society, he couldn't possibly have NOT known these applications. (Although due to a recent fad of `Funakoshi bashing', it is popular to claim he didn't know them).
4) This extremely effective, individualized teaching method was not appropriate for teaching large groups, so Itosu introduced the idea of having the students copy the kata first. The main goal here was physical exercise and spirit training (the conversion of karate to a Budo), not practicality, and was approved because he convinced the school board it would produce superior soldiers. Also having practiced in secret their whole lives, Itosu and other masters where probably not too eager to hand out secrets to every Tom, Dick, or Hiroshi who came along.
Working primarily in the school system brought up safety concerns, so Itosu had the students close their fists. Itosu was a major influence the Okinawan MA and many students and contemporaries followed his example when they started to teach publicly. 5) When Funakoshi started teaching large groups in Japan, he used the only model available to him, which was created by Itosu. He wished for karate to become popular, so following the example set by Jigoro Kano, his sponsor and mentor, he copied the idea of uniforms and the kyu/dan ranking system (karate originally was entered into the Botukukai as a subsystem of Judo). Wishing to continue the adaptations necessary to create a new and separate `do' he developed kihon and kumite and eliminated the grappling aspects, choosing to emphasize striking (many of his original group were Judo & Jujitsu students, making it difficult (IMHO) to try to teach them grappling). There were contributions from many in getting karate accepted by the Botukukai and the public in general, including efforts by Konichi and Mabuni who were very respected. Funakoshi was, however the most visible and credible source for these changes in the in the minds of the Japanese martial artists and scholars due to the backing he received from Kano and the Royal Family, and his numerous articles in the Botukukai Journal circulated in Japan (and Okinawa).
6) At a 1936 meeting of masters in Okinawa, they were told that if they wanted to be excepted by the REAL Botukukai in Japan, they must conform to the new spelling of karate, the use of standard uniforms, kyu/dan ranks, and the three k's. In my opinion, Okinawans had an envy/hate relationship with the Japanese and most adopted these changes, while constantly criticizing the karate developing in Japan.
7) The development of kihon was one of the biggest death blows to applications (along with teaching groups). Once you taught a rising block or inside block in kihon, it gave the teacher to a standard to compare the technique to when teaching. So when they were told "this is a high inside block position" the students had in their mind that it was a block and that's what they taught their students, even if it's not really what their teachers meant to teach them (See section on Misunderstandings of oyo Due to the Development of Kihon).
8) Much of the intricacies of the art lost when teaching groups, especially in Japan where many were graduating from a college program with a competition aspect (strongly influenced by kendo competition), thinking they were now ready to teach. The college programs also suffered from a huge shortage of instructors. I believe Yamaguchi Sensei (the Shotokan one, not the Goju one (I hear Yamaguchi is like Johnson in Japan
)) said as a 6th or 7th kyu, he was the highest ranking in his college club and he taught class until Funakoshi and his assistants could make it back around, which was about every three months. That was why everyone did the same kata for three months and why kyu exams were held every three months. (I also remember hearing the difference between the groups doing gohon rather than sanbon kumite was whether the dojo space was big enough to take three steps or five. :-) )Why did Itosu and then Funakoshi and others make these changes to the art?
One reason is that karate was a dying art, and part of an Okinawan culture that was being replaced by Japanese and western ideas. Okinawa was being pushed towards becoming part of Japan proper and the Okinawans were looked down on by the Japanese (as hicks).
Itosu and Azato possessed a global awareness that was phenomenal in it's time. (Understanding the social/economical ramifications of the completion of the trans-Siberian railroad and forecasting the coming war, along with a familiarity of world military strategy (Itosu quoting the defeat of Napoleon to help his cause for public karate) is quite impressive for a couple guys on some backwater island in the late 1800's).
Being a patriotic citizen, Itosu may legitimately have wished to contribute to the Japanese society. I believe with the few inquiries from doctor's regarding the superior physique of karateka, his desire to save an art he loved, and his wish that a part of Okinawan culture be preserved lead him to push for the public teaching. His initial changes were to produce superior inductees for the Japanese military.
Funakoshi new the changes he was making were having a huge effect on the art. In 1943, in Karatedo Nyumon Funakoshi wrote, "it is no longer possible to speak of the karate of today and the karate of a decade ago in the same breath. =85even fewer realize that karate in Tokyo today is almost completely different in form from what was earlier practiced in Okinawa." He justified the changes, his attempts to popularize the art by saying, "If the way attracts a person to walk it, it flourishes; if not it wastes away".
Dave in Minnesota <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Old ways vs New methods
I was just reading the thread on the bubishi. This morning I was reading my copy of Patrick Mccarthy's translation. Interesting to note that "bunkai" or simple responses to common attacks are presented first, then kata. This concept of learning self defense first, then kata to match your experience interests me. I have always wondered why I was performing movements I did not know what to do with. I was told it was my job to figure it out. Sort of a Zen koan thing I guess. Thats fine, but if you are living in a violent time and place it seems an ineffective method to learn how to fight(er, that is defend yourself).
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gmattson
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Old ways vs New methods
According to Ryuko Tomoyose Sensei, his father learned from Kanbun in this manner as well.
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GEM
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GEM
Old ways vs New methods
GEM,
Interesting. So why would Master Kanei Uechi have taken the self defense out of the art? Social pressure from the other systems masters? Could there have been a more legitimate reason - did he feel it was just as/more effective to teach this way? Did it not matter so much after the war? Or was it just this need to teach the masses?
I think we need to teach the masses. Otherwise they will go learn tae-bo. What is the MOST effective way to accomplish both of these goals? I can't help but think these masters may have had a method to thier madness!
Interesting. So why would Master Kanei Uechi have taken the self defense out of the art? Social pressure from the other systems masters? Could there have been a more legitimate reason - did he feel it was just as/more effective to teach this way? Did it not matter so much after the war? Or was it just this need to teach the masses?
I think we need to teach the masses. Otherwise they will go learn tae-bo. What is the MOST effective way to accomplish both of these goals? I can't help but think these masters may have had a method to thier madness!
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gmattson
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Old ways vs New methods
According to Tomoyose Sensei, Kanbun didn't want to teach, so Tomoyose's father, who lived in the same house as Kanbun, tricked Kanbun into teaching him. Tomoyose would come home saying he was in a fight. Kanbun would ask what the attacker did, then would show Tomoyose a fighting move to counter the attack. After a few weeks using this ruse, Kanbun finally agreed to teach formally. Not sure how classes were taught, but I'm sure a lot different than now.
I do know he spent lots of time on basics and conditioning.
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GEM
I do know he spent lots of time on basics and conditioning.
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GEM
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Evan Pantazi
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Old ways vs New methods
Mattson Sensei wrote:
"Karate in Okinawa before being introduced to the public was taught in a radically different fashion than it is today. It was generally taught one on one and began with the defenses against common attacks with a partner. As these defenses where learned, the techniques were strung together so the could be practiced in kata form. These exercises where probably supplemented with body conditioning and tegumi drills."
Bunkai.
I believe Funakoshi Sensei knew everything about the Art he was taught, his genius was passing on a watered down version do distribute to the public...a more sedated physical exercise as the Japanese Government of the time would not want "real" Kara-Te publicly known.
I have seen a picture of an aged Funakoshi Sensei holding an Ukes wrist and using a middle knuckle fist to ST-5 (No mistaking it as the picture was shot with the knuckle right on the point).
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Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
"Karate in Okinawa before being introduced to the public was taught in a radically different fashion than it is today. It was generally taught one on one and began with the defenses against common attacks with a partner. As these defenses where learned, the techniques were strung together so the could be practiced in kata form. These exercises where probably supplemented with body conditioning and tegumi drills."
Bunkai.
I believe Funakoshi Sensei knew everything about the Art he was taught, his genius was passing on a watered down version do distribute to the public...a more sedated physical exercise as the Japanese Government of the time would not want "real" Kara-Te publicly known.
I have seen a picture of an aged Funakoshi Sensei holding an Ukes wrist and using a middle knuckle fist to ST-5 (No mistaking it as the picture was shot with the knuckle right on the point).
------------------
Evan Pantazi
users.erols.com/kyusho
