Do you actually use your style?

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Bill Glasheen
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Do you actually use your style?

Post by Bill Glasheen »

It's fashionable to bash traditional styles. Somehow every generation always seems to think they have things figured out better than the previous ones. In the case of accumulated knowledge in fields like science and math, that is probably true (although not true in terms of discovery potential). But in the case of killing and self defense, this seems a bit of a preposterous proposition. Life is very comfortable for most these days. The only thing the modern warrior has that previous generations didn't have is better understanding of physiology and better communication. Otherwise one could legitimately argue that we really have to give the experience advantage to previous generations that dealt with death on a more regular and cruel basis.

So why is it that folks would trash traditional styles and the accumulated knowledge preserved in old forms? I think there are two big reasons.

1) Because of a lack of "written instructions", most forms today come with "some assembly required." Most folks are generations away from the original choreographer(s) who likely was the survivor of real combat and self defense scenarios. It's interesting to see how The Marine Corp today is rediscovering many battle worthy techniques in their own martial arts program - a product of the collective knowledge of warfare combined with a smattering of knowledge from some highly ranked Okinawan martial artists and traditional grapplers. But it's been a lot of work for them, and the development continues as I type.

2) While sport martial arts and martial arts for health has brought the arts to many, it also has diluted the practice. Looking at a system like Uechi ryu, we see that the system is known for its open-handed thrusts and tiger-like grabs, and yet none of this can be used in modern sport karate. Young bucks like to test their mettle in the sparring ring, so they learn the same vanilla fighting art (a little boxing, a little kicking, a little grappling) that everyone else learns just so they can get in the ring. That's great but...

I'd like to investigate these hypotheses. In doing so, I want to ask the following questions.

1) Do you or does your dojo train for shokens, hirakens, boshikens, and nukites? If so, how? How often?

2) Along those same lines, how much do you train for the classic fist (seiken)? If you do, how? How often?

3) Do you practice light techniques using these tools in prearranged kumite with real human partners? How?

4) Do you see a yin vs. yang in all these techniques? If the answer is yes, I shouldn't need to explain myself.

5) With all the above in mind, do you picture yourself using these techniques in a real fight? Against a striker? A grappler?

So before you trash this or any other traditional style and the way things used to be done, give these questions some fair consideration.

- Bill
KerryM
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Post by KerryM »

number 1) not sure what any of those are will ask lol I'm not very good at remembering the Japanese name for everything. (humn remembering an excersize we do everyday- shuto reiken shoken- so I'll wager a yes here too since it would follow the pattern :)

2) We do the classic fist every day- and equal it out (for advanced people) with the one knuckle one (sheesh I'm tired or I'd remember that name heard it enough)

3) We do conditioning kumitae, everything possible with another human partner- advanced- not so light :) everyday those working on black Dan Kumitae's as well

4) yes :) half hard half soft for instance

5) actually yes I do- even dream about it - There have been a couple times where I've gotten a little too happy with alcohol and nonchelantly back fisted a gentlemen simply trying to get his attention to tell him a story- I didn't realize I had bruised him or how lol needless to say I don't do that anymore. Danced "kata" too LOL I've caught myself from falling using balance techniques- (sink into sanchin) hub and I play karate everyday- so yeah it's there and I'm pretty sure it would guide me.

I kinda thought every Uechi dojo did thier classes this way- thought that was Uechi :)

K

(note) by equalling it out I mean we practice both sides (left and right) and spend equal time doing it the other way like say you punch flat fist for a time then one knuckle- he tries to keep it all balanced basically -
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Post by CANDANeh »

1) Boshikens.. in Dan kumite (against back kick) and in many other applications too numerous to list
2) classic fist most every class
3) Prearranged kumite 1,2,3 and kyu along with dan even though at times I question the value
4) yin vs. yang ..always, yin and yang force each other to improve each other do they not :wink:
5) Boshiken..can envision that being used
one could legitimately argue that we really have to give the experience advantage to previous generations that dealt with death on a more regular and cruel basis
Good point and I hope it remains so.
M. Keller
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Post by M. Keller »

Hi Bill-sensei,

Interesting post. I've been doing quite a bit to condition shokens, hirakens, and sokusens. I'm probably gonna be arthritic as heck when I get older :P

More importantly, I'm trying to rewire my natural reflexes such that I keep my hands open when threatened, while not "squaring off." It 's definitely not the norm; everyone in the UVA club rolled up their fists when I asked them to show me their first response to a threat. I blame hollywood. 8)

-Mike
Last edited by M. Keller on Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shaolin
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Post by Shaolin »

This may be relevant to this thread:

For some reason when Yip Man moved to Hong Kong he dropped the Pheonix Eye fist from the system. We're not sure why. It was replaced by the standard vertical fist that is taught now in the system. Personally I am not too fond of the Pheonix fist and am glad it's gone.

As for all of the other strikes - we use them constantly in chi sao.

Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
Rick Wilson

Post by Rick Wilson »

1) Do you or does your dojo train for shokens, hirakens, boshikens, and nukites? If so, how? How often?

Yes, more and more. Striking pads and more recently (thanks Dave Chow) we are doing our Kata while striking partners.

2) Along those same lines, how much do you train for the classic fist (seiken)? If you do, how? How often?

The only time we use a seiken fist is in our body conditioning drills, but we also use shokens.

We do use it as “aggressors” because that is what is common on the street, but not for application any longer.

3) Do you practice light techniques using these tools in prearranged kumite with real human partners? How?

I don’t do prearranged but in our improve drills we use them all the time. Depending on the partner will determine the contact.

4) Do you see a yin vs. yang in all these techniques? If the answer is yes, I shouldn't need to explain myself.

Yin complimenting Yang -- YES. (And yes I know that is what you mean I’m just being picky.)

5) With all the above in mind, do you picture yourself using these techniques in a real fight? Against a striker? A grappler?

Absolutely. In our impromptu drills and our HIGH GEAR training we use principles and techniques right from Kata while under high adrenaline all the time.

I rarely use a regular fist in application, although old habits die hard and it still comes out occasionally. This is one reason I dislike “sparring” even more now. I would rather gear up and go to it. (Yes, David you were right there needs to be some banging and the HIGH GEAR have provided it for my school.)

My use of Uechi Ryu has undergone a dramatic shift over the last 18 to 24 months. Before I began that journey I looked more like kick boxing when actually applying strikes.

Shokens or Phoenix fist need to be used to be effective. Once practiced they are exceptionally effective, far more so than a regular fist.

When we started to use them in conditioning one training partner said that for over 15 years he had told people just hit someone with this and you will damage them. He said that now he tells them they better train with it or they are more likely to hurt themselves.

Great post, Bill.
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Bill Glasheen
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

I'm glad to see the topic moving along here.

Check out the following website.

Supplementary training


Marty Dow once told me a story related to his experience at the Kadena dojo. For those that don't know, Marty (last I saw of him) is a gifted individual. He's tall, a beast of a man, and can learn a language faster than any human I know. My Chinese housemate was shocked to hear him speak to him. "Bill, he doesn't have an accent!!!"

Anyhow in a fit of frustration one time, Marty asked Shinjo Kiyohide why he was so good. Kiyohide shared a bit of a secret with Marty. Normally he'd have you think he walked into a dojo and just did all these incredible things (like do a full split with no warmup). But the real truth was behind the scenes. Kiyohide told him that there was a big difference between practice and training. Everyone came to the dojo to practice, but it was the training (outside of class time) that breathed life into the karate and made the gifted karateka.

With that in mind, how many can say that they have some kind of equivalent (either authentic or a modern version) to the training methods shown in the above link?

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Pushing the issue further...

What is the "training" emphasis of most practttioners? My sense is that most people are wrapped up in the Okinawan fascination with the closed fist. Makiwara and heavy bags are king, and most people work only on seiken thrusts. How many people put the same emphasis on hand development that Kanbun likely saw when he was in China?

For an interesting read, check out the republished interview of Kanbun Uechi recently found in Dragon Times.
This may be relevant to this thread:

For some reason when Yip Man moved to Hong Kong he dropped the Pheonix Eye fist from the system. We're not sure why.
Jim, this is very relevant to the topic, and I find that absolutely fascinating. I never knew Wing Chun ever had a phoenix eye fist (shoken).
Personally I am not too fond of the Pheonix fist and am glad it's gone.
That doesn't surprise me in the least, Jim, and this also gets to the heart of where I'm trying to go with this topic. ;)

- Bill
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Shaolin
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Post by Shaolin »

Bill

Very minimal conditioning in WCK. As opposed to one of its sister systems like Hakka Crane.

The sand bag(s) are the only tool used that I know of for this in the system but it is said that the sand bag is intended mainly to train the student to incorporate the use of the horse into the basic punches. The wooden dummy is not intended, as I was taught, for conditioning mainly to train correct positioning and footwork - to avoid force.

Want to be sure talking about the same fist - is the Shoken done with the second knuckle of index finger protruding and braced by the thumb?

Also, could you offer your thoughts on the up tilted vertical fist in terms of bone stability? Some have expressed concerns about the integrity of the fist and bottom knuckles when hitting a hard surface. Personally I have found it to be the most secure fist I've used. The bottom knuckles, when the fist is tilted up seem to be in perfect alignment with the forearm bone. Plus the angle of impact seems to push the fist more together as opposed to pulling it apart if you know what I mean.

Any thoughts from a physiology standpoint?

Jim
Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung-Fu
Rest in peace dear teacher: Moy Yat Sifu
KerryM
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Post by KerryM »

We have a set of the "Kami" "Kimi" Jars- put rice in them and hold them with fingers. I'm getting better at it. Punching into rice is interesting too as a conditioning thing.

How could you get rid of the one knuckle- isn't that a "signature" of Uechi- other than the front kicks? Little confused by that idea.

So we supplement training at least that way- we use it at home as I mentioned- but we also supplement in other ways- like there is an excersize where you follow in the footsteps (say like in mud) of the person ahead of you- stepping where they did- etc.-(excersizing not just the application in a regulated environment- but with elements of surprise etc- as well as practicing on the "inside"/mentally, this way)

We don't confine classes durring the summer to the dojo- we do demonstrations but also classes outside where the ground is un-even and you have regular shoes on. We practice ways to "use the style" in everyday life- when you aren't being attacked- as well as when you are. So we take what we have and use different ways of applying those techniques- into a very interesting, and really fun style.

Use your imagination- and Uechi can be exciting, and a great deal of fun. Plus- it does kinda pay tribute to the way Kanbum may have been practicing too- with jars n things around a farm- in the woods- etc.etc. :)

K
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Post by Pomfret, Joe »

Great post Bill. You write, "It's fashionable to bash traditional styles. Somehow every generation always seems to think they have things figured out better than the previous ones."

But, where would we be today if martial artists never found it “fashionable” to figure out a better way of doing things?

Uechi Ryu today is derived from different interpretations from generation to generation. Was Kanei bashing a “traditional style” when he invented katas, kumites, and developed new ways to practice karate in 1950, 1956, 1965, and 1973?

How can people say they are sooooo traditional when they practice methods developed 30, 40, and 50 years ago? Does that mean that the ideas and methods that I practice today will be called “traditional” in 30 years. No

You wrote, “in the case of killing and self defense, this (the idea that new generations can figure out a better way of doing things than previous ones) seems a bit of a preposterous proposition.” Do you mean to say that you and me can’t teach, train, practice, or practice fighting and self-defense better, more effectively, than previous generations? Why can’t we? Do people get hurt or die differently today than they did in the “good old days?”

I know that you are saying that we are more civilized today, but that is not a good enough reason not trying to recognize, and get rid of, things that don’t work, and acquire new ideas and methods that do work.

Joe Pomfret
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Joe

Good to hear from you.

To start with, you aren't going to be worried about me being too traditional, what with my cross training in aikido, goju, work with a special forces instructor, weapons work, rejection of chi concepts from my medical training, etc, etc. But let's see where this discussion can go.
Uechi Ryu today is derived from different interpretations from generation to generation. Was Kanei bashing a “traditional style” when he invented katas, kumites, and developed new ways to practice karate in 1950, 1956, 1965, and 1973?
This is all fine and good, and understand that I appreciate where you are coming from. Certainly I've looked askance at some of the relatively new things coming out of Okinawa. For instance I do not teach junbi undo because of its reliance on ballistic stretching principles - old school thinking on the subject of stretching.

With your analogy though you get to the essence of the problem with respect to Kanbun Uechi's style. With the closing of the fist and the introduction of the seiken fist, the style has lost much of its original character. That's all well and good I guess if you want to train to be a WKF fighter. But how many people do you know, Joe, that train their hands the way Kanbun did? In introducing the fist, the essence of the style is diluted. In de-emphasizing the training of the forearms, wrists, and fingers (never mind the sokusen), the modern student is not able to figure out how to use a shoken, boshiken, hiraken, and nukite. So then the student "tests" these techniques, finds (s)he can't make any of that pointy stuff work, and poof, you end up with glorified Goju Ryu. What was the problem here? Was the problem with the traditional style (the one Kanbun practiced) or the practice of it?

How many people understand how to use these classic open-handed techniques of the early style? How many folks know where to use them on the body? How to train the hands? How many people know that they weren't just meant for thrusting, striking, and poking?

So we have a bunch of people practicing a half-a*ssed version of a style, and then they read a book written by a bouncer or see someone do well in the movies or a fighting venue or go to seminars given by Johnny-come-lately. These new guys say that certain things you do ******, and soon we have "better way of doing things." Is this progress?

This is a tricky journey, Joe. There's an interesting analogy here. Some say that when your kids are young, their parents know everything. Then when their kids become adolescents, their parents know nothing. One day they go out on their own and make many of their own mistakes. The get a little bit of wisdom. They have their own kids. The cycle continues...

At some point we all need to go through the adolescent part of the learning curve, where we question everything. But the exploration outside the box doesn't need to be all about rejecting the past. For example when you study BJJ, you learn an ankle lock technique and think you've added something new. But if you look back at your sanseiryu kata, you'll see the technique was there all along. Some people never get that. They go through life learning this and that and something else. They follow the latest guru who says the last guru *****. These people never developed a good foundation upon which they can build their knowledge. If they did, then the testing and new learning can be about adding shape to what you have rather than engaging in the knee-jerk process of rejecting the past.

Somehow, Joe, I think a part of you understands this.

- Bill
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Kerry

I like your experimental nature. You're on the right path here.
How could you get rid of the one knuckle- isn't that a "signature" of Uechi- other than the front kicks? Little confused by that idea.
How many Uechi practitioners do you know, Kerry, that would actually USE the shoken and sokusen if their lives depended on it? Be REALLY honest with yourself here. IF the answer is not many, then why?

Jim

So sorry I missed this...
Also, could you offer your thoughts on the up tilted vertical fist in terms of bone stability? Some have expressed concerns about the integrity of the fist and bottom knuckles when hitting a hard surface. Personally I have found it to be the most secure fist I've used. The bottom knuckles, when the fist is tilted up seem to be in perfect alignment with the forearm bone. Plus the angle of impact seems to push the fist more together as opposed to pulling it apart if you know what I mean.

Any thoughts from a physiology standpoint?
I think this and my comment to Kerry actually fall in the same line, Jim.

I initially had my doubts here, Jim, because those bones on the outside of your hand are so much smaller. But then there are several issues here.

1) I do not train the WC punch with the radial deviation of the fist. I do a classic seiken fist that I learned in my first Japanese karate style. I measure other "Fist" techniques w.r.t. the way I do the sekien thrust. But that's not fair; the final degree of freedom of movement of the fist (radial deviation vs. pronation) is VERY different between these two techniques. It's like trying to compare and apple to an orange and say which is better.

2) I have not thought about exactly where the WC punch is to be used. When I think about it, a Uechi shoken isn't really the kind of tool that I use on the same parts of the body as say a palm heel thrust. And it really isn't the same tool either.

3) I haven't conditioned my hand to throw this technique.

I have played with this WC fist a bit more recently. The way I do it now, I contact on the big knuckles and roll to the smaller ones. That's like the way I do a seiken fist, where I contact supinated and then pronate. It's also a bit like how I use a shoken in a grappling situation, where I put the thingie on a sensitive area (like TW behind the ear) and then just start screwing back and forth (Ouch!!!).

Thinking a little more outside the box, I note that my tonfa kata are all about vertical fist thrusts. Imagine that! And my knife slashes are all about doing an ulnar deviation of the wrist after contacting. Imagine that!

And more... Why the heck should anyone be randomly punching a head with bare hands? Risky business indeed!

Bottom line - Yip Man got it right. One needs to pick a way to do something and then work on it long enough to make it useful.

- Bill
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Post by Pomfret, Joe »

Outstanding explaination of your point of view Bill (eccept about the ankle lock in Sanseiryu Kata, it might be there if you squint the eyes hard enough, but...) thank you.

Oops, I have a kids class rolling in. Will write more later, on this interesting subject.

Joe
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Post by Bill Glasheen »

Joe

LOL big time!!!
it might be there if you squint the eyes hard enough, but...
First of all, I didn't make this up. I learned it at one of George's camps from this tall and young guy (can't remember his name...) that knew kata from many systems and practiced some JJ. He was the first person to teach me how to do an ankle lock, and showed us all the parallel in sanseiryu (the shoken sukuiage uke)

Now to the thing that made me laugh... Do you do any photography? I believe that every good martial artist with even the slightest interest in photography should read this book.

Photography and the Art of Seeing

This author tries to teach people how to take "great" pictures (the kind that win prizes). There's actually an exercise in that book where the author tells you to squint your eyes...

But don't feel alone, Joe. Raffi looks funny at me too when I show the Uechi parallels to his Filipino arts. :mrgreen:

- Bill
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