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Van sensei: Last week I had the opportunity to look at a few handguns. The S&W Airlight family and Centennial you recommended are available at the local sporting goods store. So are many others.

The Centennial was available in 'guarded' hammer single/double action as well as the hammerless version. I had never really looked at that type of handgun before and was surprised at its size. Also, there were various colors/finishes. Black, brushed grey, stainless. They did not have a titanium version and it was not in the 1998 catalog either. Is it a new model? Perhaps a discontinued model. I'll check other shops.

Also, there was advice from the store and several customers at the counter regarding choices (one of which was wearing a 9mm semi auto).
-They carry a line by Taurus which is a South American S&W look alike. The big advantage? About $250 versus $350. However, it comes in a guarded version only. The store and a customer recommended it in a stainless version as they felt it was a better gun for heavy loads. Also, they said that with the hammer/single action, you get a major psychological effect on an attacker as they get to hear the click as you cock the hammer. That sound alone stops many predators, so they said. Hmmm.......
Also, the Taurus has a key to lock the hammer down for safe storage.

-After feeling the action on the hammerless I agree that it would probably not go off unless you intended it to. A nice feature. Could it go off if dropped? Would you carry it with an empty chamber under the hammer?

How about color or finish? I like stainless, but for a concealable weapon, would gunmetal or a dark finish be preferred?

Other advice was to get something bigger in a .357 magnum. Use .38 for practice, .357 for stopping things. Also, put a #9 shot round in for the first shot - can't miss!

As for a permit, not to difficult. The county I live in does require handgun training. The next county over accepts any hunter training course. I will look into a training course. The store did not even think a visit to the judge was necessary any more because so many people are applying for permits that most persons get a waiver if they have a clean record.

Well, visiting the gunshop actually raised many more questions, such as I mentioned above. The stores final advice was to buy two, one for concealment, and a large caliber semi-auto for general use. Oh boy.

More advice please.

Rich

Afternoon Rich,

My opinions, and believe me I do not anywhere the experience that Mr. Canna has.

The new Titanium s&w is about 3 ounces lighter than the .38 centennial model. The titanium comes in at about 11 oz. while other models range in the 14-17 oz.



Taurus makes a fine handgun. They had some QA problems in the 80's back all of that has been rectified. The beretta clones that they make originated on Beretta machinery! They were exact copies being made by license from Beretta. The S&W copies are extremely close. The major difference is weight (taurus model 85 and 85 ch, clones of centennial and bodyguard models) weigh in at 20 oz. The model 85 has an external hammer but you can buy a hammer shroud for a few dollars (about $10) basically making it into a S&W bodyguard. The 85CH either has a bobbed hammer or internal hammer, I can't remember.
Taurus' now come equipped with a key that can lock the revolver's mechanism. I haven't seen this so I can't comment. I don't like the idea. S&W can be outfitted with a magna-safe trigger device. Basically a strong internal magnet coded to a similar magnet that the user wears. I am not sure if that device would work with taurus.

Cocking a revolver as a deterrent is a pretty bad idea. It will open you up to alls kinds of litigation, much like a warning shot would. By cocking a revolver, particularly in a threat management scenario you have effectively elimanated the 'court proof' double action.

Most modern revolvers (by the way pistol is the term for semi-autos and revolver for revolving type firearms. by definition a revolver is not a pistol. magazines and clips are another but let's no go their) such as rugers (the sp101 is a great all around handgun) have a firing pin block. The trigger must travel well to the rear to disengage a plate that blocks the firing pin from striking the round. Others use an inertia type firing mechanism (spring bound). Most modern revolvers are safe to carry fully loaded (check though, Rossi's I believe do not have either mechanism but I could be wrong).

Caliber> Hard subject. The bigger the caliber the heavier the weapon in general. I found weight and not bulk the determining factor. The difference between a mid level .357 and hot .38 such as Corbon or Triton is really neglible. You must be able to control the round. Reliability, accuracy are the first criteria. If you are not comfortable with a .38 round, check out Glaser safety rounds or Corbon or hydra-shock. Any and all will do their job if you do yours.

Two weapons? One weapon? Same manual of arms? It all depends on what you want. Some say carry a single weapon and master it. Some say buy two weapons, one full size (glock 19) and the other a compact version (glock 26). Both accept each other's magazines, same manual of arms etc. Others say buy weapons for particular purposes full size .357 for when you go hunting, .38 snub for your overcoat pocket, .45 for .... you get the idea. Double action, single action, safe-t-action... it gets pretty confusing. The answer really is what you feel comfortable with AND your lifestyle. Concealment is another hornet's nest, but enough for know.;


later

Hello Tracy.

I agree with you that what you carry should tailor whatever is comfortable. There are .45 lovers and .38 lovers and those who swear by the 9 or by the .357 and each can argue theirs is the perfect choice, but in the final analysis it will come right down to if you can use the weapon effectively, not so much what it is. Except maybe stay away from the Saturday Night Specials.

Allen

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Hi Richard,

When it comes to guns ----You will encounter as many opinions as sand pebbles on a beach . Mine are as follows :

1] The titanium model is brand new and it has not reached dealers yet ! Expensive but well worth the wait !

2] < The Centennial was available in 'guarded' hammer single/double
action as well as the hammerless version. > Not sure about that ! Maybe you are talking about the 'Bodyguard' model !

Anyway ----Buy the hammer-less one ! Double action only is the safest way to go under the chemical cocktail ; you will loose manual dexterity under stress and you don't want that single action light pull [ typically about 3 or 4 lb. ] to cause an unintentional discharge , especially if you are moving about , jostled etc. { that is why fancy karate moves will never work -in spite of logging on countless techniques at seminars and through our marvelous katas ] ! Think simple power !

3] < Black, brushed gray, stainless. >

I like the stainless or titanium as that type of gun will resist corrosion ! You'd be surprised at the 'bodily fluids' exposure of that model !

4] < Also, there was advice from the store and several customers at the
counter regarding choices (one of which was wearing a 9mm semi
auto). >

A '9mm' is more powerful than a .38 special-but not much more with the new hot rounds of today -frangible loads -corbon -triton etc. ; a small semiauto will give you more rounds v. the revolver ; some new semiautos , like the kahr mk9 , micro-compact , stainless, has 6+1 capacity , is ultra slim , double action only , and even smaller than the glock 26 ! But semi-autos must be kept clean constantly , have a possibility of malfunction and cannot be fired from a pocket without jamming ! The centennial comes close to the '9' on power , is almost totally care free in it's stealth ----And it will fire every time you pull the trigger even if enclosed in a bundle of rags ! I like the idea of firing from a jacket slash pocket in total surprise and safety and knowledge that the revolver will go off every time you pull the trigger ! The famed World class instructor of tactics , John Farnam , whom Jim Maloney and I studied tactical combat under, now prefers the centennial for concealed carry ! He was a proponent of 'cocked and locked' carry of 1911 .45 colt type pistols for many years !!

5] < Also, they said that with the hammer/single
action, you get a major psychological effect on an attacker as they
get to hear the click as you cock the hammer. That sound alone
stops many predators, so they said. Hmmm.... >

Maybe so [ don't bet on it -sometimes that escalates things] , but you are kicking yourself in the ass from a legal viewpoint! You run the very good chance of getting' your gun off ' prematurely and unintentionally under stress ! As you move , get jostled , run , grab something with the other hand ,open a car door , your gun hand will clench in sympathetic reflex ; you will also be affected by the startle reflex in a confrontation ; Your gross motor power will increase and your manual dexterity / fine motor movements will disappear ..not a good thing when your finger is on the trigger of a cocked hammer ! And believe me , even if you have been schooled/ inculcated in keeping your finger off the trigger unless you really mean to shoot someone , that finger has a way of fondling the trigger unconsciously under the chemical cocktail ! [ That is why police now prefer the glock action / NY trigger -12 lb.- or modified trigger -8 lb.- ! ] Also stay away from guns that need safeties to be manipulated or actions that need de- cocking after shooting before they are made safe again !

6] < Also, the Taurus has a key to lock the hammer down for safe
storage >

Good feature , but not essential ! You can buy an external trigger lock for storage ! The Taurus is a heavier gun than the S&W ! [ read you will leave it at home]

7] < Could it go off if dropped? Would you carry it with an empty chamber
under the hammer? >

Modern double action revolvers do not go off when dropped ! No need to carry in empty chamber mode ! The old colt peacemaker single action [cowboy gun] was the one to be carried with an empty chamber , and so does its modern exact replicas , but not the Ruger , which has a firing pin block !

8] < Other advice was to get something bigger in a .357 magnum. Use
.38 for practice, .357 for stopping things. Also, put a #9 shot round
in for the first shot - can't miss! >

.357 caliber is a most potent stopper ! But the recoil is heavy ---subsequent shots hard to put on target [ the gun is heavier as well ] the muzzle flash is blinding [ some smart ass lawyer will argue that your next round was fired by you in a state of virtual blindness ] , the noise is deafening especially in closed spaces ; it is easy to be disoriented by all of that ! The heavier the gun the more chances it will be left home instead of being with you ! A titanium gun will be almost unfelt if in an ankle holster [ not the best mode of carry but likely to be there at all times-you will use your empty hand skills to gain you time and space to draw ] ! Forget the bird shot myth . In a small caliber weapon the shot -shell charge is too minute to stop anyone unless you hit him in the face ! [usually those shells are sold as " snake" medicine] Further , at the range you would shoot in self defense , the shot-charge would not spread much more than a few inches , so you can still miss big time ! At longer ranges , the small shot pellets loose energy real quick , so you will be making the other guy really mad -mad !

9] < I will look into a training course. >

If you are going to carry a deadly weapon , you want specialized training in safety , lethal force application concepts and top shelf tactical scenarios while engaged under stress ! A gun can and will be taken away from and turned against the bearer in baffling circumstances ! Carrying a gun is definitely not for everyone ; much like a good brand of Uechi-Ryu !

10] Two guns? I would by The centennial and then a big Glock in 9mm or .45 colt caliber [ cheap to buy and reload] ! The Glock action is technically a 'double action' although there is some technical difference in definition ! But it feels like a double action in spite of quite a bit of initial slack of trigger pull before resistance is felt the last two thirds of trigger travel ! A Glock is a kick around gun , tough , reliable , intimidating and close in double action mindset ! The one you will shoot over and over for matches or plinking ! I have a model 19 as Tracy Rose sensei does …we like them a lot !

Regards,

Van

Van sensei: Thanks for the great advice. Also, thanks to all who have responded. I'll try to find a titanium version of the Centennial before I decide what to purchase.

Regards, Rich

Van: I've done more homework on the issue of carrying a concealed weapon in Virginia. One important point is that Virginia is a 'Right to carry' state. I need not offer any reason to the court for my desire to carry a concealed weapon. The training requirement is four hours from a certified instructor. A certificate is issued and can be taken to the courthouse to apply for the permit. Permitting requires $50 and a 45 day waiting and processing period..

There is a company called 'Personal Protection Institute' (NRA Certified, whatever that means) in central VA that gives the course in one 4 hour block. I may take the course in the next few weeks if I can fit it in. No actual handgun use is involved. They offer several other courses that include hands on practice with your own or one of their 'defensive' handguns. If you are contemplating a purchase they will let you try out various models to see what you like. They also have a more agressive course involving drawing from a holster or concealment at typical short ranges. For this you must have your own weapon and 100 rounds of ammunition, so there is some serious firing done.

I have yet to handle a titanium 'centennial' but the store had a .22 S&W titanium version with the lanyard loop. Wow, I believe it was 8 oz. It did have a hammer though. What do you think of that revolver? It looked and felt like a toy. Perhaps that is a bad feature.

Here is the advice I got today. The hammerless aluminum body with stainless barrel and cylinder was $389. Durable but 'hard for a guy with old eyes in low light to aim'. He said he owns the black one for that reason. If the store gets a titanium model (about $200 more) he will own one of those as well. No problem with P+ rounds but firing a lot at the range is unpleasant.The hammerless S&W .357 in stainless is nice but a bit bigger and much heavier, therefor not a good gun to carry. As for owning both a concealable and full size handgun he recommended the .45 semi-auto as you did. There are many versions of that as well but he recommended the standard model, not the government or law enforcement versions - simpler and less expensive, but bigger and heavier. Soooo many choices!

Comment if you would on the above. I will start down the path soon.

George: If you are following this, might I ask what you what you carry, and why?

Regards, Rich

Hi Rich.

I know this discussion has been between you and Van, so all I want to say is take two of those classes with a glass of water and be careful when you carry.

...and, good luck.

Allen

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Rich,

Do take the mandatory four hour safety course ! Save your money for the elite training schools , such as thunder ranch or lethal force institute !

Stay away from .22 pistols revolvers for defense !

Forget about sights under the chemical dump of a real gun fight ! I know there is lots of pro and con about sight acquisition ! But , as a civilian , your gun fight will be at very close range and your eyes will tunnel on the opponent and or his weapon as you engage him ! Learn point and shoot techniques at close range !

The most popular .45 pistols are the 1911 models [ .45 colt and look alike] ! But they are single action ! Keep it simple and buy a Glock .45 .- easy to shoot and use and strip down for cleaning ! Wait for and buy the centennial titanium ! You will be glad you did ..it will be your "always " gun wherever you go !

Van

Allen: This was not intended to be a two way conversation with Van sensei, it just ended up that way. Do you have much experience with handguns?

I've been around guns and related paraphenalia all my life. We even had a bazooka rocket, disarmed we think, and some .50 cal machine gun bullets in a belt, ready to go. My dad and four uncles all were war vets and as a result all sorts of interesting things were around. One uncle had a WW2 Luger and hunted with I believe a bolt action Mauser he got home somehow. My favorite picture of my dad has him brandishing a Thompsom somewhere in Italy. In any event, guns were always around.

I plan to take the course tomorrow evening. I do not however, plan to immediately go out and get a shoulder holster. My main interest is to become more proficient in the use of a handgun as part of my martial arts training.

Van: Thanks for the advice. Yes, I will wait for the titanium version .38. I may go for the .45 soon though as I do enjoy firing a weapon. Is the Glock double action only?

Also, is there anything we could do at camp regarding stress, aiming etc? I suspect that Mass. is unlike Virginia and would not like us to practice with a weapon, loaded or not. Is there anyplace near where camp is held where we could visit one afternoon for more realistic training? And no, I would not even think of carrying a weapon to Massachussetts.

Regards, Rich

Hi Rich,

Shoulder holster? That will be the first one you throw in a drawer and forget ! If you don't like an ankle holster , then you should consider a hip holster or even a "thunderwear" holster [ crotch holster] , don't laugh , they sell like hot cakes !

The Glock is double action only !

Buy the books " In the gravest extreme" and " Stress -fire " Both By Massad Ayoob ! www.ayoob.com

No we cannot do much at camp weapons wise ! As a matter of fact , in this lousy state , Mass, unless you have a license the cops frown at you even touching a handgun !

Best,

Van


[This message has been edited by VAN CANNA (edited 01-19-99).]

Hi Rich,

Van has been complete in his discussion of firearms. I only wish to add that this laser sight is a new phenomenon that could help you learn how to point a weapon accurately instead of aiming it, which you might not do [aim] under stress anyway.

I walk around a lot with a cane. I wonder if it could be bored-out and chambered for something, like maybe a 20-gauge.



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Rich:
There is very little I can add to this discussion, other than personal experiences.

I own a 10mm Colt Delta Elite and a 380 Colt Mustang. Susan and I both took the firearm course and are licensed to carry.

The 10mm is very heavy and uncomfortable to carry. . . thus it remains at home. (I purchased a number of holsters for it, while experimenting with the idea of carrying it.)

The Mustang is a great size for carrying. It fits in the palm of your hand and can be concealed in your pocket.

One of the important areas to consider is choice of ammunition. Somewhere in my video library, I have a tape Joe"Pep" gave me, where all types of ammunition was tested, using different caliber weapons. The results were quite surprising. For pure stopping power, the Glaser safety slug was unsurpassed. The tests included shooting through water jugs, to demonstrate what happens when the bullet strikes and the damage it will do internally and as it exits.

The second test consisted of shooting through car doors to test penetration power. If my memory serves me correctly, the Glaser slug, used in a 380, tested very high overall. . . much to the surprise of the people doing the test, I might add. . .

during the time I was attending the Brockton dojo workouts, many of the teachers and students carried. (The dojo is located in the toughest part of town. I remember years ago, students from Canada were staying in the dojo during a visit and were awakened by what they describe as a machine gun battle outside!)

I don't carry now and haven't for years. (but retain my license) Susan and I both go to the range on a regular basis.

This subject is a lot like religion, chi and healing arts. . . interesting to discuss, but not likely to make any converts.

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GEM

Hi George.

.380 autos are so small they can be hidden almost anywhere. But don't confuse them with a .38.

Allen

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web: http://www.uechi-ryu.org email: <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A>


[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 01-20-99).]

BTW, check <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/nweird.htm">USA Today's Weird News</A> for the article entitled "Sleeping man shoots gun in motel"


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Greetings all.

As noted in my article, I have the dubious distinction of being an NRA cert. basic rifle and pistol intstructor.

Every once in a while I see Sensei VAn at Old Colony.

My personal favorite for concealed self defense remains the staid and arguably underpowered Walther PPK in .380 for size and concealability. I also recommend the stainless version.

For people with more "space" perhaps the Sig
Auto in 9mm, .40 S&W or .45..

Good luck. I think Sensei Van is an instructor as well should a course be required. I can help out in a pinch.

JRThurston