Concealable Handguns

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Concealable Handguns

Postby moulton » Thu Jan 21, 1999 2:14 am

Hello John.

My favorite has always been the Model 1911.

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Thu Jan 21, 1999 3:02 am

Hi Allen.

I have always loved "Old Slab Sides" (1911s).
However, it is not a firearm that I feel comfortable carrying with a round chambered, 'cause if you drop it, it may shoot you.

The Sig and Astra 45's have a hammer block or firing pin interuption device and are double action. I dropped a loaded Star on it's hammer on concrete (not bright on my part) but it didn't go off. It did need some new phosphate.




The P35 falls into the "don't carry loaded" category as well. The PPKS even though it is also a 30's design has a chambered round indicator, firing pin block and is double action.

The Israelis who (according to the article) are partial to 1911's and P-35's for carry personal carry them with no round chabered and chamber a round in one movement with the draw.

I'm not that good or that attached to the 1911 or P-35. I think both were designed by J. Browning.

John
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Postby Van Canna » Thu Jan 21, 1999 6:25 am

Hi John,

Welcome to the forum ! We can surely use your expertise in the firearms field !
Did you ever see me shoot the two shiloh sharps { Hartford model and long range express in cal. 45-90 } ? You would enjoy them ---black powder only , paper patch bullets ! Really slams that steel 'gong' at 200 yards !

I am not an NRA certified instructor ; so for any training that the guys might need or want , you are the man ! Next time you see me and my sharps , please tap me on the shoulder !

Thanks for posting ,

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Thu Jan 21, 1999 1:32 pm

Mr. Canna Sensei:

I have never handled a Sharps. My 45-70's are/have been: Trapdoors, Ruger No. 3, Martini Henry Action Custom and I still have my Siamese Mauser conversion (which actually feeds)

I saw you with you Sharps repro some months ago at OCS. I sometimes shoot the winter league.

There was a decent article in the "Rifleman" on how to load the 45-70.

I confess that I am weak in the handgun area.

Thank you for your hospitality.

I will watch for you at the club.

John T.

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Thu Jan 21, 1999 4:22 pm

P.S. Sensei Canna:

I saw you at Old Colony with your beautiful Sharps, But did not see you shoot it.

Who makes that particularly excellent Sharps (I assume reproduction)?

Beautiful. Just wanted to tell you I still remembered it.

John-san

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Postby Van Canna » Fri Jan 22, 1999 12:23 am

John -San ,

I have read your other posts on this site and I can't tell you how delighted I am that you have joined our family ! Did we ever meet? Are you the attorney who handled Ralph's case against the town of Sharon? Did we ever compete in the plate matches together with our .45 colts?

Glad you liked my Sharps buffalo rifle . I have two of them ; one is the model Hartford with a 30" tapered octagon barrel , Hartford collar and pewter tip .

The other is a long range express , 34" half octagon tapered barrel , pewter tip and fancy grade buttstock and forearm !

They are made by the Shiloh rifle manufacturing company of Big Timber, Montana , the premier Sharps reproduction factory ! There is a five year wait for one of those fine rifles ! Same company that made the Sharps used by Tom Selleck in the movie "Quigley down under"

You are welcome to shoot those rifles any time you want !

Regards ,

Van
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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Fri Jan 22, 1999 2:29 pm

CANNA SENSEI:

We met once at the range and I e-Mailed you after.

You sat on my Shodan Board in another life (1983).

I hope I can get a Sharps at some point.

I have an 1886 Win. In 45-70, it is the Rifle the .348 model 71's were based on. I am not shooting it. I had the SRC repro by Browning, but traded it for an M1A by -shoot --lemme think-oh yeah Fulton Armory.

I didn't shoot much this year at all because Bob Gremo and I were going for Godan and we had 3 students going for Shodan---so I wrote the Summer off from the shooting sports.

I don't do much courtroom work-so that wasn't me who represented the gentleman on the Sharon case.

I need a lot of training in Combat Shooting--maybe you can help me? GEM has my E-Mail. I dont' know if i am supposed to give it out on a forum page.



J.
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Postby T Rose » Fri Jan 22, 1999 8:29 pm

Morning Mr. Thurston,

It was a pleasure reading your post! The Walther is a fine weapon, very thin and easy to carry. I have somewhat meaty hands one of which carries a scar from the slide of ppk. Some gunsmiths now are extending the 'beavertail' of the ppk's. From the photos I have seen, these extensions enhance the beauty of an already exquisite weapon. They also protect the hand. I am quite comfortable with the .380 round. I have found that pistols chambered for the .380 are usually carried while my .45 is usually locked in the safe. The double action on the Walther is somewhat heavy and very little can be done to smooth out it's somewhat 'stacky' feel. I haven't done much double action shooting so it was probally my fault more than the walther's.

The .45 has gone through somewhat of a resurgence in certain police circles. Usually these units are more highly trained with their arms, units like LA SWAT, FBI hostage rescue etc. These units have gone back to single action .45's primarily for the inherent accuracy in speed scenarios. These units are not primarily concerned with threat management scenarios. These units have throughly tested the .45 including numerous drop test! Modern .45s (with firing pin blocks) are as safe as any other weapon. An arguement can even be made that single action .45s are safer the Glock safety actions (although I don't believe it and wouldn't try that one on). People just don't like carrying a single action and I don't blame them one bit. Glocks when carried with a round in the chamber, have a firing pin partially cocked. This is what gives them there light feel. The 'hammer' isn't exposed like on a colt officier so the perception isn't there (I believe that the firing pin in a Glock isn't retracted enough to actually detonate a round is it slipped, but I am not sure any comments???).
The israelis have as much combat experience with a pistol as anyone and they chose to carry witht the chamber empty. They have a pretty unique way of drawing and cocking the weapon in one very fast, smooth motion (see Gabriel Suarez's book). Great for combat but a liability nightmare! Did you mean to fire or did your hand slip? This is the main problem with the .45, it's manual of arms.

Although I have done most of my training and shooting with my .45s, today I don't carry them nearly as much as others...

good conversation, thanks
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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Fri Jan 22, 1999 9:20 pm

TROSE:

I find the same to be true. I rarely carry. When I do it's usually the Walther, or if I'm seriously nervous (once every four years or so) the sig 45.

I have not read Mr. Suarez' book, but I recall some comments along the same lines in the Rifleman, which may have been from same.

I have smallish hands, so the Walther never cut me.

Do you think the .380 adequate in most situations? I guess the consensus is it's the minimum that one can count on.

John T.

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Postby moulton » Fri Jan 22, 1999 10:38 pm

When I carried a Colt .45, I always had a round in the chamber for instant use. I also felt it was a VERY safe handgun with good safety features.

Safe? Yes yes yes! ...and strong and well-built. I learned these so well on one occasion that I fired two shots in quick succession; the first was a squib load and the bullet lodged itself firmly in the barrel. The second shot was NOT a squib load and the slide, of course would not return all the way. To the gunshop for repair. The barrel looked like a snake who just did lunch; it was the ONLY thing damaged -- not the rest of the gun, and most importantly neither was I.

I trust my life with a Colt .45. Not another single handgun in the world did I ever so feel that way about.

I do not like double-action handguns because there is a different feel when pulling the first one off, than firing the rest of the bullets. This may have changed today, I really don't know.

I never liked the .380, although I strapped one around my ankle, because I never thought it had enough stopping power if I really needed it AND the little one I had used a top eject and those smoking hot cases would always eject right into the middle of my forhead when I took it to the range.

I carried handguns for a long time although it has been years since I have owned one, and equally as long since I have fired one; they just do not interest me anymore. This thread has been a popular one, possibly encouraging some to go out and purchase a handgum, so I say the following:

A handgun has only one purpose. If there is one piece of advice I'd like to offer, that is don't ever get a gun to feel power or cool or think you can tread into shady areas where you couldn't before. Make sure you carry for the right reason because using one can be a one-way street. And if you are going to get something just for the house, a shotgum may be a better choice.

Allen

Alen



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Postby gmattson » Sat Jan 23, 1999 12:50 am

Any comments regarding bullets? I mentioned earlier the studies on various bullets and guns. (I haven't been able to find that tape. . . must have lent it to someone)

But because I owned a 380 mustang, loaded with glasers, I remembered the fact that this combination was quite lethal. Wish I could find that video!

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sat Jan 23, 1999 2:37 am

Allen:

I like the 1911's like I said. I personally won't carry one with a round chambered only because of what I read.

The SIG seems to have good safety features and is accurate as any 1911 I have owned.

But-damn I still like the feel of the 1911's better.

Your other points are well taken.

GEM:

Ihaven't kept up on the new bullet technology for hadguns at all. When I do carry the Walther by idiosyncrasy I carry a Federal Hydro shock in the chamber, a "ball" round on the top of the mag for feed, and the rest hydro shock.

(sometimes any auto will fail to feed a hollow point if the spring is stressed, something to do with the angle-for example the Colt 1903 .32 auto will never feed any hollow point, ramp angle to sharp. Even a pipsqueak like the .32 will kill. The State Police still have Sacco and VAnzetti's Colt .32 in their 'Lab". Sorry, I don't remember who shot the postman, Sacco or Vanzetti)

JOHNT

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sat Jan 23, 1999 2:44 am

Allen:

I saw an Ayoob tape on ankle holsters and backups.

He convicved me not to carry any auto in an ankle holster. Chief's Specials and custom leather only. Apparently several officers had failures of autos to function and (in the case of inferior holsterware) lost a few weapons on a footchase.

The point made in your paragraph about not changing your self defense habits by going where you might not otherwise go seems absolutely correct.

JOHN

JOHN

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Postby Van Canna » Sat Jan 23, 1999 5:33 am

As I previously indicated , when it comes to guns , opinions are countless as stars in the sky ! Here are a few of mine :

The best way for combat training Is to attend lethal force institute courses along with events taught by The talented John Farnam , one of the best tacticians in the world ! Additionally there are IDPA sanctioned shoots in the area which are excellent ! Tracy Rose sensei has a list of the events I believe !

A .380 caliber is fairly adequate with glaser slugs , but some writers still classify it as a ' mouse gun ' ! As Allen says , the stopping power isn't really there ; it will kill eventually as a .32 or .25 or even a .22 will , but it will not stop reliably . When we shoot , we shoot to stop and not to kill and need a more 'robust ' caliber to shock the assailant into desist mode ! I have a Walther PP model in .380 , fine pistol but never carry it !

1911 colt .45s are a pleasure to shoot a lot especially in competition and still the most popular gun in the world ! But requires lots of specialized training ! As Tracy-san explains , the elite law enforcement agencies a reverting back to single action .45s ! For the average civilian , without extensive training , the single action .45 is a no-no for concealed carry !

The glock 'safe action' has three separate and independent safeties : trigger, firing pin and drop safeties! The Glock is striker fired , the firing pin being partially cocked by the closing of the slide on a chambered round ! The firing pin and the trigger draw bar is then locked in place by the trigger , firing pin and drop safeties ! When the trigger is fully pulled to the rear it disengages all the safeties , completes the cocking of the firing pin and drops the sear plate away from the firing pin allowing it to move forward and fire the gun ! A Miami police force tested the G17 by throwing and dropping a chamber-loaded one against concrete and steel plate from distances up to 60 ft without a single discharge ! The Glock is a sensible safe gun to carry !

Allen , you wrote : < I do not like double-action handguns because there is a different feel when pulling the first one off, than firing the rest of the bullets.
This may have changed today, I really don't know .>

You are probably referring to the /double -single action pistol ! And you are right , I don't like the shift in trigger adjustment from double to single . The Walther
Has that mechanism !

There is no magic bullet just as there is no magic martial art system ! You can shoot an assailant and expect him to drop and you may find to your astonishment that he doesn't know he has been shot and move in on you and cut your throat ! Much like hitting someone with your 'technique of doom' from your ultimate MA system and having the opponent really get mad and tear you apart ! You need bullet placement [ center mass] and you choose your caliber on the basis of controllability , incapacitation and penetration ! This means from .38 special +P to 9mm to .40 to .45 to .357 ; the gun you carry should determine which caliber ! As to bullets , Corbon and Hydra shock are a good bet ! According to real life shooting events , glasers or pre-frag bullets may give up their energy too fast if they strike an intermediate target -arm -heavy clothing-or glass , before the human body target { Izumi-LFI]

Concealed carry requires a highly tuned mind set which brings about a personality change , which reinforces daily by the presence of the gun as an extension of the will ! If you carry sporadically when you think you may need it , it will not be there when s** Happens , and even if it is , your mind set will falter you because it has not been cultivated or reinforced daily ! Much like passing your shodan test , then quitting and then thinking a few years later that you can defend yourself , because you never 'loose it' !

Carrying a gun is an awesome responsibility and it is not for everyone ! Some people , even as they are responsible and with good intentions , lack the emotional strength to move about with a deadly weapon ! They have very weak personalities and irrational fears and will overreact in many situations ! I have seen this in my investigations and it is unsettling ! Same goes for some Martial arts people !

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Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sat Jan 23, 1999 1:23 pm

Canna Sensei, Allen and all:

All excellent and informative answers.

Allen; would you believe I "blew up" a Gold Cup in exactly the same fashion that you described in--lessee--oh a long time ago.

It stayed together, so did I.

One often see M-1 Carbines with "rings" in their barrels from the same type event.

Canna Sensei's points are well taken. When I shoot it's mostly DCM rifle,which has a "course" which is not reality, but does produce decent marksman for certain conditions. To be even locally competitive I have to shoot at least 300 rds to "warm up"
load my own brand of .308 and use a semi custom weapon.

To be a good "pistolero" I would require at least taking a combat shooting course, listening to all the recommendations for a weapon, shooting the course many times, perhaps loading or developing a favored round etc, etc..

But---thanks to all for listening and answering.

Best.

JOHN T

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