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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 1999 12:28 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 18, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 343
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Van,

AS you have seen on some of the other forums, some of our threads have led to physical threats and challenges. I, for one, determined a long time ago that I would be willing to fight to defend myself, my family, my friends and my property. I am disabused of the notion to engage in a physical fight over words. What would be the point? Doctor x was asked to post his real name and email address in another forum by an indvidual who was apparently seeking confrontation. The good doctor, quite wisely, chose not to publicize his email address. I am interested in your comments about how we should all handle these types of challenges.

Mike


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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 1999 5:03 am 
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Good evening Mike ,

Ha , you have hit the nail on the head with this one !

A few observations :

1] first of all we at this website ought to have a strictly enforced ground rules mechanism which must be agreed upon by a poster before entering the site ! The rules should place people on notice that any deviations will be dealt with swiftly i.e., sudden deletion without equivocation ! Herein lies the problem ! Any Administrator , in an effort to appear open minded , should he fail to take reasonable action to preempt the uncertainty , will foster potential dangerous escalation ! In doing so , he exposes himself and others to legal liability for failure to act prudently !

2] Because of the potential of the threat of violence and or embarrassment , lurkers as well as some regular contributors remain strangely silent and out of the fray due to sheer intimidation -doing these forums a disservice !

3] It is important to understand that , but for very few exceptions , that those who threaten , do so out of weakness . It is mostly posturing ! The strong rarely threaten ! Also as stupid as they are in making public threats on the Internet , they know it deep inside that they have put themselves in a box, tactically , and from a criminal and civil exposure standpoint ! So an actual attack is very rare !

4] Never the less , if you give them your address , a prosecutor will charge you with escalation if actual violence should come to pass !

5] Also , for the most part , their threats are nothing more than attempts to intimidate ; not threats per se ; an important distinction ! Not much more than manipulation !

6] De Becker writes that " threats " are rarely spoken from a position of power ; mostly they convey the emotion of frustration , betraying the writer by proving that he has failed to influence the discussions in any other way { Something that our illustrious Dr. X perceived rather quickly} ! As De Becker puts it , such behavior represents desperation not intention !

7] It is important to remember that , given the dynamics of such emotional outbursts, the only power derived from the threat is the perception of fear instilled in the recipient . Here you will see even less ' regulars' stick their neck out as they do not understand the mechanism and are apprehensive to get on line ! The person making the threat gains the advantage through your uncertainty [ De Becker ]

8] De Becker goes on to say that it is the recipient of the threat who determines how much weight the threat will carry ! If you convey a message that you were affected by the threat , than you give your tormentor the 'gold' ! But if you never show the threatener any fear or high appraisal of his words ; if you show him that you are unaffected , his threat will be 'tin' and will evaporate ! Again , the manner in which Dr. X handled it , shows the proper approach in also denying the threatner privacy ! Of course I chuckle at this , because if anyone could watch Dr. X in action , a physical threat would be the last thing in their minds !

9] How to handle it ? Well you can still kick the guy around emotionally ; by being polite and by extending an invitation to join you in festivities and camaraderie at summer camp !

Regards ,

Van


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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 1999 8:34 am 
Van Sensei:

This is a very good topic. I agree that there should be a set of rules up front that MUST be agreed to when you obtain your password to the forums. No click of "I agree to the stated rules" -- no password.

While I did not agree with the presentation, I did agree with the comment that real names should be used. Certainly not in J.D.'s case, but often some will be very brave and/or insulting in their anonymity.

For an example of such guidelines see: http://www.hsing-i.com/discuss.html



The internet faces a strange challenge with "flamers". They constantly get access to a board and then cause nothing but hassles. One of the best ways to deal with them was suggested by Michael Knight back early on in the disagreements. You simply do not respond. By not responding you do not give them what they need to continue -- much similar to some things suggested by Mr. Debecker.

When Bill Aksteter first posted I read it as a flame and decided not to respond. But it is hard to allow someone to have the last word or to allow insults to slip by. And regardless of any justifications he may have felt, Mr. Aksteter's first post was simple that -- insults. A further post did include some information for discussion. It also included a comment that I felt was directed at myself. Rather than respond with emotion, I asked for clarification. I felt his response would tell me what I would need to know. While I disagree with some of the points made by him in his reply, I felt it was a civil reply that tried to explain his position. I felt nothing further was needed from my end nor served by debating his points on that issue.

When Mike Sigman posted I formed my responses based on two factors. I am very interested in Chen Taiji and wanted to hear what he had to say, and the generation of the "discussion" was from an excerpt from a personal email (See Sensei Mattson's comments on "What's New"). I think that we are all often less that tactful when responding in private email. We also only got a piece of the discussion. For those reasons I posted as I did. When he made some questionable comments, folks more Senior than myself challenged him on them quite sufficiently. Later on in those threads, I became frustrated over the lack of real discussion and I inferred a tone in Mr. Sigman's posts. Out of this frustration I posted a very blunt message. I also attributed certain comments to Mr. Sigman. His reply challenged me on those comments. Reviewing his posts I found that I was in error. I had extrapolated from that perceived tone a position that he never once stated. I posted an apology for my error and I felt that Mr. Sigman accepted it with grace. For myself that ended my contributions on that thread. I did not feel any real value would be forth coming (for whatever reason) and I had some embarrassment over my error. I will, however, agree that certain issues challenged early on remain unsatisfactorily responded to.

So what to do about flamers: DO NOT RESPOND, SIMPLY DELETE.

The next problem is when is it a flame or just an over emotional response. I have certainly fallen into that internet trap myself by hitting the send button a little quickly. I think that is what Bill G. was trying to do on his forum. If a proper discussion could be created he wanted to give it a shot (sorry Bill if I am way out to lunch here). He gave the benefit of the doubt to a visitor.

Let us take a moment to look at Mr. Aksteter's first post from what might have been his position. His teacher (?) friend (?) training buddy (?) tells him that a small piece of private email was posted on a strange forum and he had gotten into quite a debate. Insults had flown both ways. So he reads the posts. Coming from a position that his teacher (I'm sure this is a wrong association, but it is works best for the illustration) was wrongful put in this position and having a biased (as we all do) in that direction, he really only sees the posts directed at his teacher. He finds them insulting and unacceptable so he posts a reply immediately. I think we can all post very heatedly under perceived insult. Now I am in no way trying to excuse that first post (I'm sure Mr. Aksteter could care less what I do). I am trying to present why Bill G. may have felt he deserved another shot at posting on his Roundtable.

We must also consider that the written word does not covey any body language or verbal tones. We rely greatly on these to know where a person is coming from. This is why I chose to ask for clarification from Bill Aksteter.

Just a few thoughts on the subject at hand. I am not trying to open up any old or new arguments by using the Aksteter and Sigman examples. I am simply using what prompted this thread.

As for those who might some day suggest that they will come and "visit" me, my address is in the school listings. If they really want me, I am not hard to find -- only a long ways away :-). I'll deal with it if anyone ever shows up. In my day job I have dealt with many upset, ranting, threatening individuals. Most are just bluster.


Peace,

Rick




[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited 01-24-99).]


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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 1999 1:31 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2071
Location: Boston, MA
Ignore the impolite stuff. But, if some one shows up at my door, uninvited and with bad intention... Well, it won't be fisticuffs/sparring match to see who is the "better" martial artists. That is a level of emotional inadequacy manifesting and blooming into dangerous behavior. It should be dealt with forcefully.

david


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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 1999 6:46 pm 
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One day I was driving in heavy traffic when this punk ; hair slicked back , dark sunglasses, pseudo tough guy , driving a fancy pickup truck , kept crowding a small car driven by a nice looking woman and carrying a passenger in the right front seat . We have all seen these morons in pickup trucks which they use as phallic symbols of their manhood !

He finally cut off the small car with a dangerous maneuver but got stuck behind stalled traffic .

Suddenly the passenger emerged from the car ; a man about 6ft 6 inches , at least 250 lb. , snarling like a polar bear and moving just as fast towards the pick up truck ! I was slightly to the rear of the truck to its outside lane , and through the left outside rear mirror I saw the punk go white with fear ! What saved him from a mauling was a sudden opening in traffic which allowed him to flee down the breakdown lane but not before the "bear", with murder in his eyes, slammed a hammer fist on the pickup bed hard enough to make the body shake !

As Rick Wilson said, most people are bluster , especially if given a stage medium to grandstand on { Internet forums} ! But the few hare brained ones who would really stoop to ' visiting' in an effort to act as cyber /enforcers , are not only incredibly stupid , they are not even real martial artists , as a true Budoka would never resort to such boorish behavior !

Not only do they dig their own nightmarish legal grave by going public with their challenge , reporting their 'visits'-- betraying their intent and making it easy for a prosecutor to throw them in jail should violence ensue and for a law suit to bring them down to their financial knees , but they invite an ignominious end to their shenanigans like the punk in the pickup truck >> or worse -like a bullets riddled corpse stinking up a coffin - because they will never know who they are up against or what , until it is too late to back down !

Like David said , when somebody shows at your door with bad intentions and violence triggers , and believe me it will ; it won't be a useless 'sparring match' event that will decide the moment ! < Well, it won't be
fisticuffs/sparring match to see who is the "better" martial artists.
That is a level of emotional inadequacy manifesting and blooming
into dangerous behavior. It should be dealt with forcefully. > { David }


As I told Mattson sensei in a meeting after the workout on Saturday , our forums should be run like a dojo and according to the code of Bushido . It is only then that more lurkers will feel confident and safe from 'hassles' and emerge and be counted with their own valuable opinions !

The answer is quite simple : no compliance with rules ? No password ! Flaming insults ? No response /delete , or curt response and Delete right now ! But do it !!

We forum administrators have a responsibility to the cyber world at large to implement these response actions quickly and forcefully without dilly dallying around lest we be forced into damage control later !

When that happens , our forums will be an oasis for the weary martial arts cyber-traveler !

Van Canna


[This message has been edited by VAN CANNA (edited 01-24-99).]


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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 1999 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 5997
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
We are working on a forum "netiquette" document, which will be placed on the registration page. By registering, participants agree to abide by the rules.

If anyone has any suggestion for this form, please email them to me.

Thanks

------------------
GEM


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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 1999 3:16 pm 
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Posts: 312
Location: Washington DC area, USA
This situation is a perfect reminder of what I've seen someone refer to as the REAL WAR:"The real war is between those of us who are NOT complete idiots and those of us who are."

Hope this is the end of the flame wars.

Cecil


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 Post subject: Physical Challenges
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 1999 2:48 am 
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Cecil -san ,

I am with you on this one !

It is important to remember that according to De Becker , ' Threatening words are dispatched like soldiers under strict orders : cause anxiety that cannot be ignored '

It is exploitation of fear by design ! " Favoring words that alarm over actions that harm " The use of words to cause uncertainty !

And remember , that for the few who would act on their threats after standing naked before the world , before they get ensnared in the inevitable legal and financial quagmire , they will run smack into force continuum obligingly awaiting them !

Lets remember what David said < Well, it won't be
fisticuffs/sparring match to see who is the "better" martial artists.
That is a level of emotional inadequacy manifesting and blooming
into dangerous behavior. It should be dealt with forcefully. > {
David }

So any perceived advantage they think they have , size , strength , skills etc. , will vaporize before the snarling teeth of the "great equalizer " ! Question is how far are they really willing to take it over some inane Internet posturing bout !

Here is something from De Becker worth noting :

< Man is coward plain and simple . He loves life too much . He fears others too much > { Jack Henry Abbott }

Van Canna


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