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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 1999 6:19 pm 
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Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Afternoon,

I just finished reading Sensie Canna's 'stopping the opponent', another excellent subject. I also finished going through Bill Glasheen's forum thread on conditioning. There is still much educating to do on the subject of stress and fighting but for the people who are starting to 'get it' what is the next level? How or what can students do to help prepare for that moment.

The last course that I took (again for pistol license renewal) the instructor was also the survival trainer for the local forces. One point that he made was that up to 30% of the attrition was due to candidate officiers questioning whether they could pull the trigger or not. I didn't get a chance to ask him how he trained officiers in proper mindset but I'll guess his answer would have been something like this:

We give them a force continunum and a moral position. In other words they give the would be shooting recipient the oppurtunity to back out. They also position the officier as the moral 'good guy'. He/She is protecting and doing what is neccessary.

I suspect that military training is something along these lines also. The use of uniforms to dehumanize the enemy. A moral posture etc. Training for a soldier such as marine sniper must be different. How do you train an individual to perform a creep, but the hair on a selected target and kill that person.
What about pro athletes? How do they train for the superbowl, a title fight etc.?
My point is that there are methods to train people to deal with the chemical dump. What are we doing as Uechi practitioners to bring our training up to date? What are we doing so that we are not more proliferators of bull****, hoping that all our japanese terminology will keep us from getting killed.

I will be the first to start.
Our dojo purchased an impact suit. We have one student put the suit on, usually that person is as large as we can find (even if we have to import them. Sometimes this works out better since they do not know what the other will do. It takes some skill from the person inside the suit to make the suit effective though.) We then have the suited person attack with ferocity and *conviction*. People who can work out heavily for two hours are gassed in less than a minute!! The second time they perform the drill they last longer as they get used to the stress.
Results: people learn to deal with the initial confrontation and chemical dump. The intimidation factor is exposed. People learn to hit through the target and position themselves for the next hit and not stop the hit.

Next drill: You get inside the suit. This way you can learn inside fighting without getting banged up.
Results: You learn the subtlties of inside fighting (person falling on you after a hit etc., shifting so a punch glances). You build experience and confidence in the zone. You learn how to target automatically...

let's hear some other thoughts.

later


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 1999 11:17 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
Tracy,

I think your approach is a good one in ratcheting the "realism" factor. It goes along the lines by guys like Quinn and groups like model mugging, etc.,

I think you should take it to summer camp so others can see and feel what you're talking about.

Purchasing those impact suits are expensive. People may not want to invest unless they feel there's utility. Show them.

thanks,

david


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 1999 12:31 pm 
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Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Chris DeLory (Vancouver) is scheduled to bring his "impact" suit to camp this year. Perhaps Tracy and Chris can team-up for a series of seminars using this training device. Chris, like Tracy, has been successfully using this "impact" suit in his classes for the past two years.

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GEM


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 1999 11:33 pm 
I like the suit. I once fought full-contact stick-fighting with one person in a body suit and the other person in his street clothes. Both whack-away like hell at the other. The one in the suit uses a padded baston while the other one uses a regular baston.

All hell breaks loose in the free-for-all and you find out real quick that all the Siniwali in the world t'aint gonna do not one bit good.

Only problem was there was no fear. That's what kept the realism out. Even though the likelyhood of accidents was high and many welts of the night were a given, you knew that your classmates were not going to cream you to a pulp but would back off if you got hurt enough to stop.But, but, I have a suspicion that I would know the fear in your dojo so I am not asking for it; I know better.


The chemical dump. It can come out of nowhere even when you are most confident of a situation. It can happen even when you are prepared for it, know the signs as it erupts, and consciously try to conquer it and make it not happen -- It can easily cost your life.

You asked for thoughts so I am just expressing an opinion from where I have been, which are but narrow paths through the wilderness.

Allen




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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 1999 6:03 pm 
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Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
You are dead right David. The only thing that is real is the real thing. Seems kind of obvious, doesn't it?

I think you can duplicate a real fight fairly well, the question can you do it in a way that your average student will accept? Probably not. Most people cannot even except a moderate amount of body conditioning, it is unlikely that many would accept a truly frightening, intense simulation of a fight.

But for those that are interested there is always Mr. Quinn's book "Real Fighting". He describes the elements of his course quite well. One element that is perhaps overlooked is that in his course sometimes there is no confrontation. That is important both as an element of surprise when the confrontation happens, and to keep people from jumping the gun and attacking anything that comes close rather than responding to a real threat.

Maybe something that could be done would be to dress somebody up in the suit have them attack somebody randomly, or psuedo-randomly (i.e. as specified by the instructor). This would definitely add a suprise, and there certainly wouldn't be anything like having somebody start shoving you around to get the intensity up.

But again, how many students can and will accept this? How many will accept it when they do not understand that this type of training is needed to hope to be effective? How many will accept it when they have a preconceived notion that by taking the martial arts they will learn the 12 Fists of the Monkey? A big proble, lots of questions, anybody have all the answers?

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 1999 5:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 1089
I enjoyed reading about the element of realism that people are bringing into the dojo. If I may add a couple of thoughts.
Ringside Products (913/888-1719) makes a product they call the Super Body Protector. It is best used in combination with the optional Heavy Hitter Pad placed behind it. These relatively inexpensive bogu combined with a No Foul groin protector, head gear, and kenpo style gloves allows a pretty good opportunity to work bunkai full out. Obviously, the high lethality stuff like full bore axe hands to the throat and thumbs to the eyes need to be worked with some care, but it all helps.
Additionally, I like to allow the encounter to go where it wishes to relative to obstacles in the dojo environment. If you're pursued over something in your space, go with it as that's real.
I think the concern for "will it work next time" or any time for that matter is something we are all destined to live with as our best efforts at realism remain simulations. Unless of course we........NO NO we can't do that!!!!!
Good Training,
David


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 1999 8:13 pm 
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Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Folks,

Thank you for the responses! Keep them coming. Let me restate the problem that we all face:

*We know that there will be a chemical dump
during a confrontation, particularly a lethal one. We know it's shape,form, exactly what we can expect. We have to prepare for this.
*We have tools provided by our training methology and others we developed
*We have experience both in Martial Arts and in real altercations.
*We cannot have people fight for real to prepare for a real fight.

My question to the forum was : What do we do to prepare students for this scenario? I posted that one particular training method that we employ, the use of a impact suit. It is not for everyone nor is it the only method we use. Yes I suggest books also, but books by themselves will not do it.

We know the problem so what are we doing about it????

thanks


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 1999 8:43 pm 
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Location: Evansville, IN, USA
About a month or two ago, our head instructor used me as a demonstration of the effect of chemical dump. Without warning or provocation (and without an impact suit) he started pushing and shoving me and yelling at me. The result was, since it was a complete surprise to me, was that even in the dojo setting I experienced a bit of what a fight is like and reacted similarly (tunnel vision "Hey where did the rest of the dojo go?", wide eyes, heart starts to go, etc). That is all well and good, because for me I don't care if I get yelled and pushed around. But that wasn't his point anyway ... he knows that I know what it is like. His point was to demonstrate to the class what will happen. After the class, many of the students asked about what it felt like, and we recommended various reading material, etc. Some commented as well that it scared them to death from 15' away (Sensei is a good yeller Image ). So perhaps this is a method to use to get at those students that would quit if "attacked" in the dojo, while still getting to point across a bit.

Other than that, what can we do? I mean for those of us who are labelled "psycho-nuts-who-enjoy-pain" (whereas I prefer the term enjoy intense training) doing this training is easy for the instructor .. for those who will never stand for it, and will rarely understand, options are limited if there are any at all.

Another thought, a lot of time the instructor will want to seem All Knowing (tm) and All Powerful (tm). It isn't too surprising why ... it attracts and keep students. Unfortunately, it does a great disservice to the arts and to the students. A good teacher will be honest with their students, especially higher ranks and just what it is that they they (the students) know ... i.e. next to nothing. And that no preperation except intense training will ever get them close. That takes a lot of guts, especially when the guy down the street says he can make you invincible in 4 years, and for US$2000. I guess if you start people down the right path from the start they will respect your honestly and stay with you ... but it is rough.

Osu!
Jason

Summary:
* We know what will happen
* We know the solutions to help people prepare for it
* Some students will be willing to accept the limitations of the arts and how to maximize their effectiveness and the cost of having to put in some real work, with the body, mind and soul.
* Some students won't, and what can you do, except try to nudge them in that direction, of if you got the money/guts throw them in the ocean and see who heads for the beach, who drowns and who starts swimming.
* I hate to sound defeatist but I personally do not see much else. Maybe if we all focus our chi?


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 1999 10:57 pm 
Tracy,

I just scrubbed a lot of stuff I just wrote here. I deleted it because the bottom line, from my perspective, is a person has to face himself in a scary situation before he knows what he can or cannot do. To me, all the words in print can't teach what it feels like and just cannot adequately describe feelings enough to make a difference to another. Each person's thoughts and feelings are only his and he is very much alone at that time. Some may embrace the feeling and go for more, some may crumble, but there are many empty spaces in between.

Allen

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web: http://www.uechi-ryu.org email: <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A>


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 1999 12:58 am 
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Although not the perfect test, tournaments are a great place for students to "test their metal"!

I have yet to speak to a student who didn't experience many of the emotions of a real fight while waiting for his/her turn to enter the ring. Win or lose, the confidence gained from the experience benefits the participants.

------------------
GEM


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 1999 1:04 pm 
And you have it, George,

Those new to sparring, and especially new to tournaments where they will fight strangers are approaching the unknown and unfamiliar in what is going to happen. This is a good step for them to help discover, within themselves, who they are in the face of danger.

Allen



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web: http://www.uechi-ryu.org email: <A HREF="mailto:uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A>


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 1999 4:05 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Jason wrote:
***************************************
Summary:
* We know what will happen
* We know the solutions to help people prepare for it
* Some students will be willing to accept the limitations of the arts and how to maximize their effectiveness and the cost of having to put in some real work, with the body, mind and soul.
* Some students won't, and what can you do, except try to nudge them in that direction, of if you got the money/guts throw them in the ocean and see who heads for the beach, who drowns and who starts swimming.
* I hate to sound defeatist but I personally do not see much else. Maybe if we all
focus our chi?
***********************************

Thanks for the reply. Taken in order...
* We know what will happen
Yes we do, thanks to proponents of realism like Sensie Canna.

* We know the solutions to help people prepare for it
OK, What are the solutions??? That was the main question. How do we prepare people for *it*?

* Some students will be willing to accept the limitations of the arts and how to maximize their effectiveness and the cost of having to put in some real work, with the body, mind and soul.

Absolutely. Using the tools of our training methology, how can we help them with the *cost*? There are absolutes that the student must accomplish (for example being in the best shape possible). However, there is an extreme amount of latitude that we as teachers can work with. Some students will want to train in a more realistic arena. What can we do to maximize their effort?

* Some students won't, and what can you do, except try to nudge them in that direction, of if you got the money/guts throw them in the ocean and see who heads for the beach, who drowns and who starts swimming.

OK. You can't help those who won't help themselves. I guess that's the point here.


* I hate to sound defeatist but I personally do not see much else. Maybe if we all
focus our chi?
Maybe that's the answer and that's ok too.

Tournaments are a great training ground but not for everyone. One student is an OR nurse who is frequently called into emergency. She gets anxious walking through the garage late at night. Yes, she could buy pepper spray, and yes she could have the guards escort her etc. She has chosen martial arts for many reasons this being one. To have her put on gear, enter a tournament, spar with some *no can do* guy with "Mafia Kid" stenciled across his gi is probally not the best solution for her. Another student is an 18 year fire eater who wants to fight contact. This scenario would be great for him.

If there is no soloution to this problem then that's ok. I would like to stimulate some conversation on tactical solututions to this issue: what drills, training devices etc. can address this in some fashion.

The shooting world started out with bullseye, great training of the basics (sight alignment and trigger control) but not very practical. The shooters then moved into IPSC. IPSC (which has interestingly started out as a martial endeavor and has been turned into a game where the main objective is now to win) introduced elelments of movement and stress. The newest training endeavor is the NTSA. NTSA is back to basics self defense competion. One match is the National Tactical Invitational. Participants are placed in a scenario and judged on how they solve the scenario versus what score they shoot. Some of the scenarios use force on force with modified weapons (to shoot simunitions). Monthly the NTSA scenarios are published and they are excellent.

It just seems that with all of the excellent summer camps, cross training, books etc. we should be able to come up with a more robust solution than tournaments....

thanks for the input


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 1999 4:53 pm 
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Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Osu Tracy!

>* We know the solutions to help people >prepare for it
>
>OK, What are the solutions??? That was the >main question. How do we prepare people for >*it*?
>
>* Some students will be willing to accept >the limitations of the arts and how to >maximize their effectiveness and the cost of >having to put in some real work, with the >body, mind and soul.
>
>Absolutely. Using the tools of our training >methology, how can we help them with >the *cost*? There are absolutes that the >student must accomplish (for example being >in the best shape possible). However, there >is an extreme amount of latitude that we as
>teachers can work with. Some students will >want to train in a more realistic arena.
>What can we do to maximize their effort?

The answer to that in my view crosses a lot of roads. I'll try to cover them all as I see them (these are not in any particular, especially not in an order of importance).

Conditioning.
- Running. Running strengthens the endurance of the body, and pushing to get that last mile is a good "go the distance" mindset enhancer.
- Body Toughening. Fighting hurts. Our objective should be to minimize the effects on us and maximize the pain on the opponent. We do this by banging on our shins with telephones books, our forearms with nightsticks, etc. This develops, I presume, a high degree of bone density, and perhaps literally stronger muscles that inflict pain when used to block or strike. Heavy contact sparring is also an excellent drill.
- Strength. Anybody who says size and power don't matter in battle is a dreamer. There are a million ways to develop strength, weightlifting is likely one of the most effective.
- Speed. Light bag. Sparring for tournament(padded or not, light or heavy contact) are good exercises for speed.

Technique.
- Simple. Simple. Simple. Technique must be simple so as to be remember but the muscles and instincts when it happens. Low kicks (especially round and side kicks), palm heel strikes, elbows, knees are all excellent techniques that should be done over and over. Reinforce on the student that THESE are the techniques of choose. If you are going to master anything, master these. Internalize these techniques.
- Power. Power. Power. Emphasize that technique must be done powerfully all the time. Especially in the dojo. Do not allow weak technique past 5th Kyu. The opponent in the dojo is the air... visualize. Powerful technique must be a habit.

Mindset.
- Books. Lots of good ones. Make them required reading. Have a Q&A session to testing, written or otherwise that tests the knowledge presented in these books.
- Scenario-based training. Impact suit. Discussed already.
- Instill the fear. Talking about the fear with the kind of intensity Van does will get the students going. Just mere words if done well get get the adrenline pumping a little.
- Instill the reality. Martial arts is highly ineffective against guns, knives and other weapons. It is generally highly ineffective against multiple big strong guys. Martial arts is extremely ineffective if you don't train with intensity.
- Pre-determine, pre-prepare and pre-resolve to action. Surpise drills/attacks as mentioned above in previous letter.

I think that covers most of the bases.

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 1999 6:15 pm 
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Posts: 157
Location: Evansville, IN, USA
Maurice,

Hey now ... what do ya mean Tracy's list? Hold on one second here, it took me a lot of time to write that out ... lets be giving credit where credit is due! Image (please note definitely intended as a jest).

On a serious note, concerning running, that is an interesting point that I was note aware of. Thanks for pointing it out.

Let me to the list.

Conditioning.
- Burn-out session. 5 minutes o' doom (tm). 25 pushups, 25 situps, 25 squats, 25 jumping jacks, 10 seconds that thing football players do with their feet ... you know that really fast in place running ... anybody know the name, 25 high jumps (knees tucked in), repeat until 5 minutes are up.
- For variety. Burn-out session #2. 5 minutes. 10 middle front thrust kicks, 10 middle round kicks, 10 middle side kicks, 10 middle reverse punches, 10 low blocks, 10 middle outside blocks, 10 middle inside blocks, 10 high blocks. Repeat until 5 minutes are up. No correction of technique ... just boom boom boom ... go go go!

Burn out sessions are especially useful for the end of class or the class immediately following a test. The reminder that promotion is not a time of making these easier, but only harder (and yes, I know everybody is sore and tired the class after a test, which makes it an even better time to do it)! If this cannot get a rise in spirit, what can?

Osu!
Jason


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 Post subject: Next Level
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 1999 6:50 pm 
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Agreed, tournaments aren't the ideal. However, given the nature of most programs in dojo, tournaments are the closest most students will come to a real life encounter.

A couple years ago we invited a school that taught women and men a fine program, using the original body suit. (Forgot the name of the program) The course consisted of as much mental preparation as actual physical training. In order to pass the course, the student must fight a real fight with the person in the suit. . . while fending off very graphic and real life screaming insults, and fairly real attacks. Its about as close to the real thing the average student can get.

Our dan tests have been evolving to include areas that involve stress and conditioning. We should not be promoting students simply because they put in the time and pay their tuition on time. (there are always exceptions of course.)

Van and I have been discussing offering an "advanced test", for those who really want to know they really deserve the rank and want to know that they could, in fact, defend themselves. We might have something ready by camp!!!

This is a great thread and very important for all practitioners to read and understand.

------------------
GEM

[This message has been edited by gmattson (edited 01-26-99).]


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