Force continuum

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Force continuum

Postby T Rose » Thu Jan 28, 1999 8:06 pm

David brings up a great point in his last post. Thought it would make a good thread. His point was that not everywhere can one carry a firearm and in some cases it is impossible. Where I live, obtaining a permit is extremely difficult. Even if one has a permit there are times when a person cannot carry (federal buildings, schools etc.). If a person is carrying, there are defense scenarios when the firearm cannot be judiciously employed.
The police here follow a force continuum. Pepper spray, club, firearm.

What other defensive tools do people use in lieu of or in accessory to firearms?
I personally carry a flashlight in my car. A light is a neccessary safety device that will never be questioned (for example why do have an axe handle in your car sir?). My choice is the maglite in C cell for a better grip. A friend of mine use to carry an aluminum hairbrush. David mentions a folding knife. The knife culture is growing including kneck knives. Any other thoughts? How do you people train with these instruments?

later
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Force continuum

Postby RACastanet » Fri Jan 29, 1999 1:34 am

Hi: I generally carry something hand sized in my pocket to use in kyusho strikes. Great for 'defanging' the snake. In fact, I picked up a neat hand sized gadget with 1" metal caps on each end (surf shop at the beach). I showed it to Evan sensei last summer and he agreed it would be a great pressure point attacker.

I like the 'AA' size Minimag flashlight as well and gave one to my 17 year old daughter to carry. I also gave her a "DD" size as well for her car - a great club! However, she decided to keep it by her bed.

Also, in my various auto trunks I carry escrima sticks and a good, old Louisville Slugger (wooden pro model). Bill Glasheen sensei prefers to carry a little league metal variety. It is not as imposing but probably better in close, as well as higher speed and durability. Sometimes tonfa find their way into the car as well.

For trainig, I spend as much time as possible at summer camp with Raffi Derderian sensei and Evan Pantazi sensei. Back home we drill on occasion with knives and sticks, and Bill Glasheen sensei will also work with tonfa, bo......

Oh yes, and I always carry a small genuine Swiss Army Knife!

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 01-28-99).]
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Force continuum

Postby David Elkins » Fri Jan 29, 1999 5:46 am

Oh, this is a great one!
I know people who regard anything as a potential weapon. In fact one of the funniest stories I've heard in a long time concerned Sokaku Takeda of Daito Ryu who was apparently playing Go with a friend and was attacked and proceeded to brain the assailant with his Go board! So much for come-a-longs and other slick manouvers whilst in the throes of the chemical dump.
So, how about a Go board?
Fist load of roll of quarters, small section of pipe, Kobutan, etc.
Of course keys on a dog collar 21" link chain makes a nice flail and if connected to a Kobutan is a manrikigusari of sorts.
Spare change to throw in the eyes of an attacker.
Credit card sharpened to razor edge.
Knives are great and the neck carry is super for ease of deployment and being unobtrusive. Nowadays carbon fiber creations are airport friendly. Pen knives are kind of slick and certainly unobtrusive.
The ASP tactical baton is relatively inconspicuous and a potent weapon.
Steel toes in the boots are awesome and not going to raise eyebrows as carrying a fixed blade on your belt may tend to.
One of the neatest things I've seen lately was a small push dagger sewn in the top of a cap. Another cap trick is to sew a fishing sinker in the rear of the cap. "Oh please don't hurt me.....BOOM!!!!
If one is going to carry a weapon one ought to be willing to part with it. This would support buying economical items and eschewing the collectables as pretty as they are. A point that is raised over and over but is so important is also to not carry around much less exhibit anything that you aren't prepared to use lest you end up wearing it...or worse!


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Good training,
David
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Force continuum

Postby david » Fri Jan 29, 1999 10:58 am

folks,

The only thing I would add to comments is that whatever you choose as your tactical(s), carry with it you always. Make it a part of your attire as you do underwear. (Okay, I DON'T want to hear about... Image ) It/they must always be kept in the same place(s) on you. You have to practice accessing them in different situations. If you don't do this, you will find yourself searching for them when you need to and unable to access them as quickly as the situation may dictate. That means they are practically useless... This is the same situation if you carry a concealed gun.

>>If one is going to carry a weapon one ought to be willing to part with it. This would support buying economical items and eschewing the collectables as pretty as they are.<<

Depends on the type of tactical. With knives, especially folders, you have to be careful that quality is decent lest you have a knife that folds up on you own fingers or allows your hand to slide onto the blade in the critical moment. "Economical" but also dependable. This puts you in the range of
$60 to $200. An ASP (expandable baton), depending on size, goes from about $60 to $150. Mag lites go from $12 to $50.

"Economical" varies with the individual's circumstances. But, you need to ask how much is your life or the lives of loved ones worth. I have a friend who bought a cheap expandable baton. He had to use it. The thing bend and wrapped around the attacker's head and the guy was still standing. He ended up using effectively the butt end as a pommel. He bought an ASP afterwards. I've heard stories from FMA guys who said they were "sliced" by el cheapo knives and they didn't even draw blood...

>>A point that is raised over and over
but is so important is also to not carry around much less exhibit anything that you aren't prepared to use lest you end up wearing it...or worse!<<

This point can't be overstated. Look deeply before making that move. Like having a child, don't casually decide, "yea, I think I'll have one of those..." We are talking life and death.

david
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Force continuum

Postby T Rose » Fri Jan 29, 1999 3:37 pm

Excellent replies, keep them coming.

Be careful with DD flashlight, the grip is wide enough that on impact it can rip the flashlight right out of your hand. Cold steel (special projects) made a light out of aircraft aluminum. They bored out the solid piece just enough to get AA batteries in. It was modeled after escrima sticks (The founder and owner of Cold Steel is an accomplished stick fighter who participates is -contact- stick fights). ****** as a flashlight, excellent as a self defense baton.

Most of the things that I carry I try to make as inconspicious as possible. Things that make excellent weapons without someone thinking they are weapons. This will save you a lot of hassle.

later
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Force continuum

Postby Robert Christianson » Sat Jan 30, 1999 4:42 pm

i carry the small 6 inch mag light, with my car key and house key attached, that way its always in my hand, plus the added advantage of the flashlight Image

in canada its impossible for me to get a permit for a handgun
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Force continuum

Postby Robert Christianson » Sat Jan 30, 1999 4:42 pm

i carry the small 6 inch mag light, with my car key and house key attached, that way its always in my hand, plus the added advantage of the flashlight Image

in canada its impossible for me to get a permit for a handgun
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Force continuum

Postby JOHN THURSTON » Sat Jan 30, 1999 6:47 pm

I understand that this is a bit odd, but I have 3' hardwood cane that starts at 1.24" and tapers to 3/4". Appears to be oak.


The 1/25" end has a round brass pommel.

Very stylish!

JOHN T.
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Force continuum

Postby moulton » Sat Jan 30, 1999 8:38 pm

Canes? I guess if you stretched your imagination they could have limited value in self-defense. To my heart, these babies are near and dear and close at hand whenever I venture. If ice and snow, without the blonde nowhere I go.
<CENTER>
Image
</CENTER>

[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 01-30-99).]
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Force continuum

Postby David Elkins » Mon Feb 01, 1999 4:46 am

Sensei Moulton,
Your words to days of yore do hark.
When gentlemen would prowl the
smoky dens of La Chienoise pursuing dreams and affairs of honor and the heart. They never feared the approach of ruffian or cutthroat, secure in the memory of the whipping sound of Le Can as it rent the air and the howl of pain from the offending cur.

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Good training,
David
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Force continuum

Postby moulton » Mon Feb 01, 1999 8:43 am

Heh, heh!
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Force continuum

Postby Van Canna » Thu Feb 04, 1999 4:02 am

Good discussion on the force continuum concept !

The people who think they can solely rely on their Uechi-Ryu , or some other martial arts , when the chips are down , are the dreamers of the world ! Right now as we write , you would not believe how many of us reading these posts disdain this concept and fantasize about their terminal 'karate' thinking that they have the 'right stuff' because they were trained 'differently' and by the 'real masters' !

Because of this , they will never move from condition 'white' to condition ' yellow' and will continue to fall prey in a real life threatening situation !

However , s*** happens even in condition yellow and it will be a total surprise in spite of it ! Your force continuum response , assuming you don't freeze in your tracks [ you won't know it 'til then ] , will only be as good as the weapons back up system you carry and how accessible it will be instinctively ! Lots of times you will fumble for a weapon you either cannot get at real quick or forewent to wear today , because of your dress requirements or because it was getting cumbersome !

OC spray , kubotans , knives and guns , worn all at once do present a concealment problem and require a certain dress mode ! Difficult to wear comfortably with a business suit [brief case is an option but it changes the' reach for it' dynamics derailing your response action] !

Also remember that if someone has the 'drop' on you , don't do anything or move foolishly for some weapon you are not sure you can get at, lest you get your brains shot out !




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