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PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 1999 4:27 am 
JT,

Tough to blow yourself up unless you smoke while reloading. Besides, today's gunpowder isn't an explosive anyway.

Allen


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 1999 1:03 am 
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Allen sensei: Please tell me more about today's gunpowder. Does it take more heat and energy to ignite than in the past?
Rich


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 1999 1:20 am 
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Van sensei: Well, after much thought the first purchase will be the Glock .45 . No negatives, only positives from the gun stores, this site, others I know. The instructor did warn me not to fire lead bullets in the Glock due to the rifleing method. ?????

Also, I chatted with the instructor again regarding the titanium 'Centenial'. He has fired one at a dealer show (BTW, he said one of the ladies in the booth had one hanging from each ear) and aside from the recoil is a fine weapon. However, he cautioned me that this product is just coming off of the assembly line and there may be some bugs that will not be detected until more are sold and used.

The standard 'Centennial' is proven reliable and the weight difference is measured in ounces. The lanyard loop is the only real difference. Van: Should I wait awhile and purchase the titanium model or get the standard version now? Is the lanyard a feature worth waiting for?

Your thoughts please.

Rich


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 1999 3:47 pm 
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Rich

Congrats on your first, was is the full size .45 or the compact? Did you compare to the .40 (savings in size while not giving up much to power)?
I personally would go ahead and get the titanium smith. Smith has been making revolvers since there was such a thing. I don't believe (correct me if I am wrong) the design is new. There shouldn't be any major bugs, maybe some smaller ones (timing etc.).
The frame on alloy guns is what I usually suspect first. Titanium is pretty hard so I wouldn't worry about that. Smith & Wesson have a great warranty program, they always stand by the customer so feel safe.

One thing on revolvers, particularly on DA only. Many people under stress don't allow the trigger to return enough to engage for the next shot. My Ruger was like that, no fault to the weapon. I spent most of my shooting time with SA. Something to keep in mind.

later


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 1999 11:38 pm 
Rich, today's powder in contrast to black powder -- Allen

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 1999 1:49 am 
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Tracy: The new weapon is the Glock 21, a full size .45. I plan to get the 'Centennial' next month. The 'C' is not intended to be fired much, but carried often. I chose the Glock in the full size for frequent practice plus real stopping power. If I was planning to get only one, I might have gone to the .40 or 9mm.

I've had a Ruger Stainless Single Six .22/.22magnum for over 15 years. A great gun for plinking, cheap to fire, low maintenance, relatively safe. However, after reading Van's words of wisdom I took a good look at what else it was good for. Not really good to carry, not much power, slow to fire........hmmmmm. So, as reality set in a new weapon and some better training were in order.

The family is pretty familiar and comfortable around guns as we have had assorted long guns for years. My first was a Remington .22 bolt action, purchased in 1967, used, for $20. It is still in great shape. I have a few 12 gauge shotguns as well, used primariy for turkey shoots and trap/skeet. My only hi-power rifle is a Winchester lever 30-30. Easy to carry in brush, but only moderately accurate over 100 yards (no scope).

If the weather is good Sunday, I hope to fire a hundred rounds or so to break the Glock in.

Regards, Rich


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 1999 3:43 am 
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Rich,

You're lucky you can just go off into the woods nearby and shoot. Up here, it's a big production. You have to basically be in a gun club. I checked into them. Not many nearby and while the cost is not too much annually, it is not worth it for me because of time constraints.

I have a cabin up in Western Maine, logging and national forest country. One can just go off into the woods to do plinking or, if a little more ambitious, some skeet. I really enjoy my Ruger Red label 12 and Browning side by side 20. I have a single shot 22 savage and a Marlin lever action 22, but I really enjoy the "dynamic" nature of shotgunning more than plinking. My sons have their air guns, shooting whenever they feel like it out in the "yard" with my supervision. It's nice to see them learn the responsibilities associated with the air guns and see them translate that into an appreciation of the worth and dangers inherent in any tool.

My brother is a gun club in Boston somewhere and has a license for handgun target shooting. He has invited me out but I haven't even found time for that. I think he is interested in the Glock or Sig as well. Have no idea where his "preference" is coming from, though I know his club has a lot of Boston cops as members.

david


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 1999 4:08 am 
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Van, Allen, et al........

Today I took the Glock .45 to the firing range for a test run. Wow! I am glad I went with the .45 instead of the .40 or 9mm. The pistol is very controllable, easy to operate, fire, disassemble to clean (BTW, I'm disappointed with how little the instruction book says about cleaning and oiling etc. I was expecting a blowup with little arrows pointing to places needing oil, grease, or nothing. Van, any advice here?) and reassemble.

My 15 year old son, 6' tall and lanky, had a little trouble aiming it but did well. We both practice fired at 21 feet and 50 feet into a human shaped target (on paper) and most shots landed in the center of mass area. A few were even in the bullseye located on the sternum.

A couple of safety notes - We fired the single action Ruger .22 revolver a bit as well. There is quite a difference in trigger pull. My son immediately noted that he liked the heavier trigger pull on the Glock much better. Me too. the Ruger felt unsafe after the Glock. Another important issue - noise. I wore my OSHA approved industrial duty ear plugs (worked fine for shotguns), not ear muffs. Besides my son and myself, we had people firing large caliber handguns on both sides of us. My ears are still ringing (finished at the range at 3pm, and it is now almost 11pm). Next time earplugs and muffs. Van - gunfire without ear protection must do some serious damage to ears. TV and movies do not do justice to the sound power a .45 generates. How to pros deal with this? BTW, my dad was in an artillery outfit during ww2, 105mm howitzers, and could not hear much at all later in life. (As an aside, he fought his way through Sicily under Gen. Bradley, then up through Naples. He even told me a story about leveling a hilltop structure the Germans used as a command center and observation post - Monte Casino I believe. Was that in your neighborhood?)

Any thoughts by anyone will be appreciated. So far the advice has been great.

Rich


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 1999 8:41 am 
Rich,

Glad you got something you like. Here are a few pages to try in case the reloading bug bites:
http://www.recguns.com/VG1.html and
http://www.teleport.com/~ldddad/reloading.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 1999 4:23 pm 
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Rick:

I don't think anyone answered your question on "powder".

Old type Black powder is a mixture of Sulphur, Saltpeter and another item which I momentarily forget. It is an "explosive" and is relatively easy to set off, hence the Wooden warships powder monketys wearing felt slippers.

Most if not all powders I work with now are Nitroglycerine seriously mixed with flame retardants of a chemical type I do not have any expertise to explain, except to say that they are more correctly classed as "propellants' because of their chemically controlled burning rate.

Black powders loads are inherently limited as to velocity in that the charge explodes the barrel chamber contins the explosion and out she comes.

Smokeless Powder is "aimed at" continuing this "explosing" for a bit longer.

JOHNT


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 1999 1:30 am 
Rich and JT,

I haven't had time to get involved or respond adequately to questions asked because I have been both dad AND mom for the past 5 weeks (hence the paradigm shift). Then Chris caught a stiff case of pneumonia in the middle of the night on Monday morning (yesterday) and needed immediate medical attention.

Black powder is an explosive, and smokeless powder is an inflammable. Black powder explodes while smokeless powder (today's powder), just burns as fast as can be. If my memory serves me correctly (second thing to go), the tins of smokeless powder that one can buy over the counter is plainly marked inflammable. Black powder cannisters are clearly marked as an explosive and has names like FF or FFFF (that's how it sounds when it goes up if you light it off on the table), and there are only a few grades of it. I can remember holding a match to smokeless and having difficulty to get it to kick-off.

JT.

I recently came across something that states you need a firearm permit in this state to carry pepper spray. Is this correct?

Allen

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[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 02-02-99).]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 03, 1999 5:59 am 
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Rick:

Re: Monte Cassino

Monte Cassino was one of the more famous snafus in the allied effort.

The Germans had occupied the Monestary at Monte Cassino and could view all comers attepting to pass Northwards up th Po (I think) valley.

It was the highest point in the area it had a fairly illustrious history and I beleive its founder was Francis of Assissi, but I haven't read this material over in years.

Suffice if to say that the Allies had to make a very politically and religiously unpopular decision to "flatten" the Monastery
and the nearest town with artillery and medium and heavy bomber attacks. The featured bomber was the B-25 Mitchell.

Well, it didn't work, they flatened the structure pretty well, but, briefly, the Germans dug into the holes that were left and fought of all comers for a while.

Result, offensive up the Appenines stalled, attempted breakout via Anzio, which was not properly exploited, but which forced the Germans to withdraw from the "line" (sorry i forget the name, Maybe "Gustav" line) of which Monte Cassino was an integral part, and the Northern chunk of Italy remained under German Control (more or less) until 1945.

Similar thing happened when Grant (with a "mine"="tunnel bomb") blew a huge hole in Confederrate lines shortly after the battle of the "Wilderness" (Petersburg?).

His troops then got stuck in the "hole" made by the mine. Read Michael Shaara's "Last Full Measure" for a novelization of a grim fight.

Sorry to wax on so.

JohnT

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 1999 4:51 am 
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Glock 21 in .45 colt ---good choice ---softest shooting machine for this power house caliber! Best defense load , federal hydra-shock 230 grains ; very accurate and it expands to over .70 caliber in 10% ordnance gelatin !Glock is stress proof !

Wait for the titanium "C" ! Dealers will give you any song and dance to sell what they have in stock right now ! The "C" will be your 'always' gun , believe me ! The chances of your firing in self defense is very remote but you want the least intrusive weapon upon your person or it will be in your drawer back home when you really need it !

Do lots of practice with the glock .45; no lead bullets [ will lead the barrel] -full jacket 230 grains -full power loads ! Get used to the long pull 'double action' , so you won't short stroke the "C" trigger under the chemical dump ![ Some people under stress will short stroke a pump shotgun as well ---very comical on the skeet range ] !

Cleaning a glock is easy --- use a good solvent such as hoppes no. 9 and any good gun oil to go over lightly after cleaning ! In addition to a cleaning rod and brush , use a toothbrush to access crevices ! Don't be taken in by all the cleaning paraphernalia !

Wear 'eyes and ears' always ! Electronic muffs , such as the 'wolf ears' are excellent as they will muffle gun shots and yet amplify voice and other low level sounds for safety on the range ! If not electronic -then combine plugs and muffs as high power rifle or handgun fire [magnum] going off from the sides in your ears , is very bad ! Wear a visor cap to prevent hot casings hitting you in the face /head or from lodging behind glasses lens or neck shirt collar causing accidental discharges !

Monte Cassino was further North than my home town ! Pretty glad about that !

Yes , Allen , in Mass you need an FID card to carry pepper spray !



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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by VAN CANNA (edited 02-03-99).]


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 1999 3:00 pm 
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Van Sensei:

Where was your home town. I hope I got the the historical points more or less corrrect.

Thank you for reminding me to get some shooting gloves. I had a 29, but now have a Redhawk. (it was used and reasonable). I think it may be a tad stronger than the 29, but I am not sure.

Allen Sempai:

Yes, you need an FID for mace, I wasn't sure about pepper spray not am I sure what the new law is going to do on this point.

The powders Mostly use are rifle powders. Cellulose is the cmpound I think primarily used as a "speed of burn controller" and "stabilizer". They still used black powder in the U.S. Military until the retirement of the Iowa Class. It is not only unstable in the sense that a spark will set it off, but in the sense that it may deteriorate over time and it is useless if damp. (ffg may then get to fffg or not work at all) It was common before the 18th century that the charcoal, saltpeter and sulfur would "separate out" if moved around a lot. Siege gunners would thus prefer to "make their own" "on the spot".

Somebody came up with a process to stop this separation, but I can't remember any details on when where or who.


JOHN

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 1999 12:57 am 
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Van san et al: First note - The Circuit Court of Virginia approved my concealed carry permit in exactly two weeks from the day I walked in the door with my application. Wow. The statute states 45 days but I guess that is a maximum wait and with my squeeky clean record my application sailed through. I'll stop by the circuit court next week to pick up the permit.

With that detail behind me, I will take an additional handgun couse next week. The instructor has a standard 'Airweight' Centennial so I can get a feel for it and get more experience with the Glock.

In the catalog, the titanium version comes in two grip styles - wooden or a hard rubber. Since I just purchased the Glock, I must wait until March 1 for another handgun purchase and can order what I want. What do you recommend?

Now, back to cleaning the Glock. There appears to be a bit of light grease around one actuator on the left side of the gun body. No mention of it in the manual. I suspect a visit to the gun store is in order for their recommendation. Also, the Glock breaks down into only a few pieces. The actual trigger, safeties etc. are in the handle. Glock clearly states in the manual to NOT disassemble that mechanism. Would you take a brush to that? Do you put any light oil on the pin mechanism that is in the slide?

Many, many questions.

And thanks for the advice on the electronic muffs. I'll check them out. Also, I generally wear a baseball cap and did appreciate that it kept hot brass out of my hair, etc.

Rich


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