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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 1999 1:42 am 
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Van sensei et al: Yesterday evening was a class after a test and before we start a new crop of beginners. To do something different I brought out the wooden gun to talk about street crime, awareness and to show them a few Malony sensei disarms.

First, I had someone larger than me approach with the 'gun' and ask for my money. My advice to all is 'give it up, fast'. But for grins, I told the class that I was going to dis arm the bad guy. I told the guy with the gun to say bang when I moved on him. Well, under this scenario, the Malony disarms work very well, ie. no chemical cocktail, and the weapon was quickly pointed in the bad guys chest. I explained that this is not what you want to do unless you practice, practice practice. Even then, it was unlikely that this would ever happen to them in real life unless they were very unluckey and/or careless.

Boy, did that get a discussion going. There were eight of us in the room. Here is what came out:
- Suzanne was robbed at gunpoint of her purse at the city University, VCU, not long ago. I described the 'condition white' of 'blissful ignorance' and she admitted that she was in fact daydreaming and walked into the problem. Her response was to give up her cash, all $10, which created demands for more. She then dumped her purse' contents out and said there is no more. Then began to get tense, shake, talk loudly (chemical cocktail?) and the bad guy got nervous and bolted. She was unharmed and saved her purses contents. The police said she did the correct thing.

Now Andea spoke up. She was walking alone in DC, in the white zone with a 2 beer buzz, and walked into the same situation. A bad guy got in her face, and demanded money or he would 'put a .45 in her head'. Andrea is from Switzerland, had just been in the US two months and had no clue what was going on, language or otherwise. She said no thanks, I do not want one, being polite. The situation elevated, and she did not catch on for a while. As the bad guy was getting really agitated, she finally decided to run. She saw no gun so ran into a construction site porta potty and locked it. Must not have been a gun, as she waited for a while, peeked out and saw no one and went home. Whew.

Dave also had a story.....

So, here were 2 out of 8 recently accosted and threatened. And, I was told that last week the husband of one of our brown belts was likewise in a 'condition white' when making a delivery downtown in the day time and had his car taken at gunpoint .
I started out with just a simple discussion on awareness and demo and ended up with three recent stories from our small group. And all three were in part due to being 'unaware' of their surroundings.

My plan? I'm going to order a few of DeBecker's books and share them with students. Also, have occasional 'awareness' discussions to make certain that they understand the need to sense situations, and believe what is felt.

Any advice? I am not sure I want to practice disarms as someone may try one and get killed.Or should we be more active in working on these techniques? Van, Tracy, Allen.........anyone?

Rich


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 1999 4:04 am 
ok...

I trained disarms and counters in Chicago with water pistols -- ideal conditions: easy to block, the attacker stood at a predetermined distance and predictably stood still, in a dojo, etc. The person doing the disarming got squirted too often to say these techniques are reliable. Then again, who is to say the person holding the gun will be close enough to disarm.

I've seen sensei Maloney's techniques at summer camp, and they are EXCELLENT and worthwhile to learn well. But to get good at it you have to practice over and over and over.

If someone hold a gun on you and you think you are going to get it anyway, the time to disarm, if possible, is BEFORE the attacker settles into his interview. When I was a kid, I learned to "go for the juggler" just as soon as the interview started; wait one second and it is too late. Sure I was a kid, but grownups are only grownup kids and the punks do the same things when they get to be adults, just fiercer.

So be absolutely aware of your surroundings at all times is a good way to avoid or get away from danger. Easy to do, eh? Esp. when driving a car and at a stoplight pushing the buttons on your radio focusing on getting some music between all the talk and commercials. You are just going to be totally aware of your surroundings then you look up and there is a carjacker's gun in your face.

Story time: A famous Albuquerque headline involved a young woman who was sitting in her car and was approached by a man and a woman. They started to kidnap her. The soon-to-be kidnapee reached into her purse and put a drop on them with her shinny little handgun until she was rescued. Ok, that's one way.

All the fights I got into as a kid that I remember were all different and unique and with some moves I've not yet seen in karate. I s'pose that several dozen situations of facing someone holding a weapon on you would all be unique and different too. How do you adequately prepare for a thousand different scenarios? Maybe you could if you lived your life to prepare for that one moment that may never happen.

Starting to ramble so stopping here. Hope this helps.
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[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 02-03-99).]


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 1999 11:25 am 
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Location: Boston, MA
I have been talking to a coworker about her dangerous habit of walking outside with a walkman on. She said, "If it happens, it happens." Well, it doesnt' just happen. We can invite it by what we do.

Coincidentally, I just learned one of the young guys I practice with was mugged last week. He came of the gym and Northeastern U, slapped on the headphones and headed for the T, oblivious. This after I've been emphasizing constantly that awareness is the biggest part of self defense, that awarenss will allow one to avoid most situations altogether...

While in his own little world, three muggers came up from behind. One guy put a choke on him and lifted him off the ground. He started thinking about what to do. Well, in the past several months, we've been doing alot of knife drills and sparring. After the sessions, we take notice of the nicks, slashes and punctures and figure out which would have been fatal. I always say, "This ain't fun and games. It's for keeps." Think hard before you go to this as the first resort because, on the street, one of you will be headed to the hospital and the other will likely be lying on the ground dead or dying." It is much better to give them what they want first and to fight if you really have to to protect your life. Well, the guy said he remembered what I had been saying in training. He told the muggers, "Take the money." He reached in his pocket, pulled his wallet and tossed it away. The muggers let him go, grabbed the wallet and split. He took off the other way. The muggers got all four dollars and credit cards, the latter he immediately cancelled.

I told him he could have done better but did very well nevertheless. He SURVIVED and with a minimal physical fee incurred for the lesson. (Others in the NU area have been robbed and then stabbed or shot afterwards.)

As for my other friend, well... You can lead a horse to water but will it drink...

david


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 1999 11:50 am 
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Location: N. Andover, Ma. USA
Although this in no way reflects on "real Situations with surity", we use a pellet Pistol which has a look, feel and weight more akin to a real gun. We prime it (No pellets of course and proceed through some disarms). There is a bit of anxiety involved, again not as in a real situation, but the best we could come up with for the Dojo.

You know when and where you were shot by the concussion of air that hits you. On your head it is really telling and to some quite upsetting.

To stress people more we do it in testing situations with them knowing that being shot is a major dip in their score, this puts on alot more pressure.

Evan Pantazi


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 1999 6:23 pm 
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Location: Washington DC area, USA
"All the fights I got into as a kid that I remember were all different and unique and with some moves I've not yet seen in karate. I s'pose that several dozen situations of facing someone holding a weapon on you would all be unique and different too. How do you adequately prepare for a thousand different scenarios? Maybe you could if you lived your life to prepare for that one moment that may never happen."

I guess this is why Mr. Canna and others stress the importance of a small number of basic techniques, practiced over and over and over and over again.

I haven't commented too much this forum lately because I don't know much about guns, so I'm not about to go shooting off like a pseudo expert.

I will admit that the recent chains have gotten me more into seriously considering taking up some small arms training and visiting a gun range periodically afterwards to keep up the skills. My questions (as Cecil The Questioning--man, I love that; I was one of those kids that asked "why" all the time--are one, what to really look for in a coure, as a novice, and two, how often should I visit the range in order to maintain my skills.

I'd also like that address that Mr. Canna had put up for Mr. Ayoob's web page. I've lost it!

Cecil

You can e-mail me now at:
creativebrother@yahoo.com
You can visit my text-oriented webpage at
<A HREF=http://creativebrother.freehosting.net>creativebrother.freehosting.net</A>, where I pontificate on the martial arts and other aspects of life.

And don't worry, I'm not into stealing other people's comments for my own web space!
Also, all of MY political comments will be kept on MY page since that is "my house" so to speak, and here, I am a MEMBER, not an administrator!

Peace, love, and SOOOUUUUULLLLLLLLLLL (Train)

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[This message has been edited by Cecil (edited 02-04-99).]


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 1999 12:04 am 
Practice the Uechi Wauki and also pivoting into crane enough times and it becomes automatic.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 1999 1:01 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Allen: The use of a water pistol is a good idea. I like Evan's idea as well, and I do have a pump up pellet gun that would create some sound when the trigger is pulled. I am concerned though, that if a finger is inside the trigger guard that it could be broken even in a friendly setting. With a squirt gun, I could cut off the guard and sand down any sharp edges.

I'll poll the group and see if they would like to do more handgun defensive practice.

Van: What are your thoughts on this?

Rich


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 1999 2:14 am 
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Hi Rich,

Disarms are good to know and practice with the caveat that they should only be used in the last resort i.e., you are about to die , you have accepted you might die and you go for it ! Remember disarms are only to be tried at close range ! Lots of punks are smart enough to keep some distance !

Your skill level will be down 40% and you will fumble ! Don't get shot unless you really have to ! Then , again , as David points out , you may be stabbed and/or shot after you give up your money just for fun ! There are no clear cut answers to this one !

It is better [ in some experts' opinions ] to practice with dummy guns that look and feel like the real thing ! Pellet guns or water pistols that go off really do not provide any greater margin of success in preparation for the unpredictable situations you will be facing ; at best it will be a 'crap shoot ' !

CECIL,

I would initially recommend a 'manual of arms' training with a qualified NRA instructor ! Then if you are really going to carry , you should attend LFI-I course at Lethal force institute ; 40 hours of immersion training ----when to and not to use a gun in self defense; home and street gunfighting tactics; psychological preparation ; justifying your actions in court ; intensive combat shooting [500 rounds] ! These classes are given cross country by Mas Ayoob !

Then , at the local ranges , you can join the 'combat' teams who meet on occasion to fire courses simulating real life scenarios ! About once a month should do it !

Contact LFI at WWW.AYOOB.COM-----e-mail:AYOOB@IBM.NET





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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 1999 3:07 am 
Hi Van,

I agree that the closer you get to the real thing, within reason, the better the exercise. You can knock a heavy item really flying out of someone's hand with a good toe-kick to the wrist. But then again, I remember shaking at the knees once under the chemical cocktail; I'll bet if I knew how to kick then they would have been pretty weak and useless during times like that.

I liked the water pistol only because it demonstrated reaction time and whether you succesfully made the block or not in time.

Allen



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 1999 6:05 pm 
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Location: Marlboro,MA US
Disarms against pistols,
I am not an expert in any means, for that see Mr. Maloney.

Before you even consider disarms, you must know the basic pistol types and that types manual at arms. During a disarm, it is most desirable to disable the firearm if at all possible (this is nice since weapon at any given time might be pointed towards you and might discharge).

Revelovers (double action), covering the hammer will jam the firing mechanism. So will stopping the cylinder from revolving, as will keeping the trigger from moving far enough backwards.

Single action pistols, get to the hammer. If you grab the slide the loss of inertia will probally jam the weapon, however one round will be fired.

Glocks.. no exposed hammer, not enough room behind the trigger...pray hard

General point, this is hard under pressure if not impossible. Practice but know the realities of what's being discussed.....


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 1999 1:21 am 
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Location: Richmond, VA
Tracy san: Good advice. Jim Maloney made a point of grabbing a gun somewhere around a moving part and to hold on -even if your hand or skin is pinched as it will interfere with the mechanism's function. I have passed this info on to the students in practice and showed them where to grab. Perhaps someday I will bring in a revolver and pistol to see so it is clear to them.

As for the Glock, and other pistols of that nature, I believe that the pin is in the slide, exposed hammer or not, and if you can push back the slide a bit on the grab, the pin will hit air.

A bit over a year ago, around December 1, 1997, a police officer in Richmond did just that in a scuffle. A female officer got into a scuffle with a larger male. The bad guy was able to pull the officer's Sig Sauer 9mm, which had a round chambered. He pointed the gun in her face but she was able to get a hand on the slide somewhere. While looking into the barrel, the felon pulled the trigger. She heard a click, but the gun did not go off. By this time another officer came to her aid. Later on it was reported in the paper that the pin had hit the primer, but had either been slowed by her maneuver or the slide was pushed back a bit. Another few thousandths of an inch and........

I've repeated this story before so you may have seen it. I keep the clipping in my gym bag to show people the value of grabbing the gun in a life and death situation. Unfortunatly I have misplaced the clipping at this time so hopefully my recollection is accurate.

Van: Please correct me if I am wrong about the slide and firing pin. Perhaps this construction is unique to the Glock and SS. My exposure to handguns is limited but I am working hard to learn all that I can.

Another question for all of you. The handgun instructor I plan to meet with next week has many types of handguns. Are there any types that you believe I should try if only to get a broader experience? .357 Magnum? PPK? Colt 1911?

Thanks, Rich


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 1999 1:47 am 
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I think a gun disarm is worth trying if you think the guy is going to shoot you and you are by yourself or, perhaps, with another person who is not in the line of fire.

I read somewhere (can't remember where and don't know if it's a true story) where a "hero" made a grab for the gun, the gun discharged, and an bystander was shot. Just a caution and something to think about. When and what situation should one attempt a disarm...?

david


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 1999 7:41 am 
Good point about the bystander, David. I wonder who would be held legally liable for that one. Would lhe attorney of the injured bystander go after the one defending himself against the perpetrator, especially if it was financially worth suing him?

Allen

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 1999 2:11 pm 
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I share the concern about bystanders. Our group discussed this and we agree wrestling for a loaded weapon is not wise in a crowd. The act of going for the gun is probably reserved for situations when you are confronted alone, or in a small group that can slip off to one side.

The scenario I set up is with a right handed shooter, and you are with someone and move to be on their right. Pushing the gun to the shooters left aims it away from a companion and also can tie up the other arm. We also try turning the barrel up on the grab, and this works well as a disarm but for an instant the barrel is pointed at your face/head. You would need to be very quick.

Rich


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 1999 6:19 pm 
Rich,

Now that you will be packing a loaded firearm, I wonder if you have given much thought to how you would use it in a crowded area. Would you take the chance? Also, while a handgun may make you feel more confident walking the streets, what are the chances of someone getting the drop on you first or coming from behind or the side and sticking the barrel right into your face. It hurts when they do that, a full interview all unto itself.

Lots to think about and sometimes I like to play devil's advocate and occasionally relish presenting an 'impossible' scenario for others to consider.

Allen
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[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 02-06-99).]


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