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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 3:41 am 
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A few days ago in the globe :

< A 32 year old pizza delivery man gets out of his car and suddenly out of nowhere he gets shoved down to the ground by a burly man with braided hair , a green jacket and white hat ! He is able to get up and scramble back into his car and take off , but the attacker chased him and fired a shot through the passenger side -window hitting him in the face >

Wisconsin :

I was military trained ; a friend and I were attacked by six armed thugs who decided to murder us . They nearly succeeded ! The attack came in a flash ; my friend is a highly skilled martial artist, but we were reduced to near-helplessness in mere seconds . Even had I carried a gun , it probably would have been taken away from me by the overwhelming speed and momentum of the attack!

My office:

A new employee joined us ; 6ft -4" ; 240lbs ; physique like "Mr. Clean-- fourth place in the National collegiate Judo championships ! Moves in on you like a freight train bobbing and weaving ! Very respectful of all karate systems , but he asks : < how many of you really think can put me away with your shots in a split second before I move in on you and take you down ? And once I put my hands on you and lock you up in painful holds , what skills are you going to call upon ? > Well how about if you were charged by a big football player used to conditioning that you and I only dream of ! [ Remember the UFC championships and all the great Karate men who ended up like chopped liver ?]

Yeah I know -" but they were not Uechi trained from the RIGHT LINEAGE , right ? > Dream on !

Question: Can you see yourself in those situations and really assess your chances without fantasizing ? How would you train to handle yourself ?




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Van Canna

[This message has been edited by VAN CANNA (edited 02-11-99).]


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 10:46 am 
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Okay, Van sensei, I'll bite...

Situation 1: The attack didn't just come "suddenly out of nowhere." The attacker was there and DAMN close at that.

SItuation 2: Been there. I'm here by the Grace of ...

Situation 3: I worked with a couple of huge guys before, one of whom played football. They used to pick me up, bearhug and mess around. "What you gonna do, huh, small guy?" I did nothing. I saw them coming a mile away and knew they weren't serious. Why bother.

Before this in high school, I had one of the "star" football players in one of my class. Guess he was taking a martial art. He used to make funny noises and moves whenever he saw me (this was the 70's martial arts craze). I didn't bother responding to that either. One day, he was standing near me. All of a sudden, he launched a strike at me, without any noise. I instinctively (without any thought) parried his strike down and popped him in the nose, knocking his head back. My mind came back. I said, "Sorry, didn't mean that. Got lucky..." He looked at me suspiciously and walked away.

Regarding your judo co worker and others like him. Yeah, they are big. They are strong. They may have some moves. But, can they be sure I am not faster. Can they be sure they can take a good or shots to the eyes, throat, groin. Can they be sure I wouldn't pick something up. Can they be sure I don't already have something to shoot or plant in him with while he is "wrastling" me down. Please... these guys have got to get a cure for their "macho" disease. It could be fatal. Your coworker is being very shortsighted and could be sadly mistaken if he thinks and acts as if everybody is going to play by his rules or that of the UFC...

david


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 1:02 pm 
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Good response by David ! This is precisely the type of discussion I wanted to stimulate !

< Situation 1: The attack didn't just come "suddenly out of nowhere."
The attacker was there and DAMN close at that.>

This makes a continuing case for awareness , however in spite of it we know that s_* happens when you move about in crowded daily life !

< Situation 2: Been there. I'm here by the Grace of ...>

When you are under sudden , blindsided , overwhelming attack , just about nothing you know or do may save you and it might just be your time to die !


Situation 3: < They are strong. They may have some moves. But, can they
be sure I am not faster. Can they be sure they can take a good or
shots to the eyes, throat, groin. Can they be sure I wouldn't pick
something up. Can they be sure I don't already have something to
shoot or plant in him with while he is "wrastling" me down. "as if everybody is going to
play by his rules or that of the UFC..."

Good point and it makes the case for the 'force continuum' concept . So how do we train ?


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 1:54 pm 
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One way to train is to train continously, not with the stop-and-go point fighting method so common in most dojos.

Perhaps we could work on having students get tackled on the mat by some big, burly person and have them see what they can do to get out of it. If the answer is nothing, then the student knows they have a weak area.

Of course, if people worked on grappling as well as striking, it may help. Or, worked on the idea of trying to move the heck out of the way!!!

Visit my webpage. (shamless plug) I have a spoof I did under my martial arts section on "You Know You're a Ghetto Martial Artist if" and "You May Be a Ghetto Martial Artist if" where, just like David suggested, I poke fun at the fact that some of us are not afraid to clobber someone with the nearest object despite years of training in the Way Of The Empty Hand. But seriously, I think, as you point out Sensei Canna, that too many time we martial artists get locked in one paradigm and can't shift gears. We really think our magical stances are going to protect us from every conceiveable form of attack.

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 8:41 pm 
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Hello Sensei and all,
I don't have anything to add to #'s 1 and 2, but 3 is a good one and the stimulus for many long discussions.
First, the big, strong, and tough element is never to be taken lightly (IMHO as folks say.) Big is largely genetic and we can't do to much there, but strong and tough are birds of a different feather and again IMHO should be trained/challenged regularly. My experience is that many people give lip service to both but emperically it's hard to find where the training occurs. Maybe it's mental imagery/rehearsal (from the root word, hearse) but you don't see a lot in weight gyms or commercial dojo. Please, before everyones blood pressure starts going up, I think Uechi and other "real" (see Dragon Times, Vol. 10) karate styles are notable exceptions. In most gyms the use patterns favor dumbbell waving and the use of machines to isolate individual muscles for that buff look we all so admire (I don't know how to make a smiley face on the computer so please just imagine one here.) Seldom does one have to wait on a squat rack and if so it's for a trainee who is wrapped to the gills and performing 1/4 squats. Movements that foster real strength in bone, tendon, muscle, and mind like full squats in any repetition sequence, stiff leg deadlifts, standing presses, cleans, good mornings etc are usually avoided like the plague. If they are performed it is frequently with a training partner who recites the "all you" pledge as he/she does most of the work. Abdominal work which should be done with HEAVY weights is usually done with none for hundreds of time wasting reps. Neck work, which again should be on the training schedule of every combat artist is hardly ever seen. In my experience, Judoka do train correctly with resistance apparatus. They have been getting wonderful advice since Draeger and Ishikawa (1961.) Unlike the great majority of karateka and gung-fu players they are also used to hurt. Pain is something they've made peace with early on in their careers and they can instinctively differentiate hurt from pain and respond appropriately.
In the actual training of whatever art we embrace, how many of us truely push the envelope on a regular basis. Again no fingers pointed - just a general commentary on the level of intensity in many dojo/kwoon. Intensity can take many forms. In the dojo of my first Uechi Sensei half the group were soccer players and it took real intensity to make it through a training episode from simply a cardiovascular perspective. Is militaristic barking of orders and demanding punitive response for real or imagined infraction intensity? I don't think so but some would disagree.
Having said the above, Judo, wrestling, and football are sports with rules of engagement much the same as the UFC. How many of us would not gladly trade a dislocated joint for an eye gouge or a crushing/tearing of the trachea? These differences make comparisons apples and oranges.
How can we train for these scenarios? Again IMHO minimize dojo focus on point sparring. Encourage a continuum of movement from entering to trapping/striking to grappling to finishing (hope I didn't infringe on any trademarks there.) Wear bogu. Hit hard/kick hard. If the action goes over, under, around, or through environmental obstacles, allow it. Go slow when necessary so as to avoid real tissue damage to our valued training partners. Allow, no - demand, use of technique from the wonderful kata we possess. Encourage creativity in elaboration of bunkai from all levels of student seniority.
Specific drills for grappling "shootists" : My karate brother Carl, who has forgotten more than I will ever know, suggested training what the footballers call "post and tackle." This is simply retraction of the lower extremity on the side of the advancing energy and posing Sanchin with the opposite arm. After he showed it to me I immediately flashed on the ashi sabaki we use in Tenshin Hojo Undo exercises. That's it!!! If you can't knee, elbow, iron palm strike the incoming force, nullify it with Tenshin stepping and grab/knee, kick, or punch. If it's possible to execute this strategy in my mind it's preferable to kick out your legs and collapse on the opponent as now I'm playing his ground game. An apparatus to train this as well as work iron body for the midsection can be fabricated out of a log which has been suspended from the ceiling by chains, obi, or rope, and swung into a trainee who works the evasion and appropriate response.
Well, as John C. said to me in a post once, "tell me how you really feel David?" Hope some of this is helpful or stimulating of further discussion.

------------------
Good training,
David


[This message has been edited by David Elkins (edited 02-12-99).]


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 9:15 pm 
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Sorry, I don't want to monopolize the thread but brother J.D. had suggested that I post a thought and this is an appropriate venue. I have been a psychotherapist in one form or another for many years and I have seen many people suffering serious emotional illness (Major Depression and P.T.S.D. primarily) as a consequence of, among other things, their expectations of themselves being dashed by one cruel turn of fate or another. It is particularly tragic when young people who have Black Belts are beaten up and/or raped. Invariably, they had not been exposed to the mindset we seek to cultivate and feel there is something terribly wrong with them as people and martial artists that they allowed this insult to be perpetrated upon them..."I should have done my triple spinning upside down cresent unstoppable dragon whips his tail technique!"
I feel very strongly that it is criminal for us to allow students to leave the dojo with this type of perspective. This discussion seemed an ideal place to voice such a concern.
Thank you.
David


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 10:33 pm 
So little is done to train the mind in the dojo.

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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 1999 11:01 pm 
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David,

I am sure you already know. But it's worth saying anyway. PTSD can occur whenever one goes through a traumatic incident, even where one emerges the "winner."

Nothing like recurring dreams that take years to go away.

david


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 1999 1:34 am 
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Allen: I've got an idea for the dojo that might help a bit. See the new thread that I started.

As for dealing with a mismatch, we have a 6'4" 300 pound student (also 13 years younger) with a green belt in Uechi, a brown belt in Goju and ongoing training in Judo (rank?). I make a point of engaging him in some activity in every class and it is very interesting.

At 6'1" and 205 pounds I am overmatched physically and he has a few grappling skills that I do not. Also, he is what Evan would call a 'nonresponder'. All in all, I get the opportunity to see what works and what does not in such a situation. Even though he is a nonresponder he does not seem to like hard contact on the inside of the forearm (radial nerve) and on the front of the shin with a forearm. The Uechi kotekitae has given me one edge it would seem.

Will I grapple with him? Not on purpose but some day maybe. He is the best thing we have in the dojo to simulate a worst case scenario. Now, if only he had a twin brother.

Rich


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 1999 4:57 am 
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Couple of issues going on in this thread...

Just came across a story in a book by Edward Hays (Trappist monk and Taoist scholar) - speaks of dealing with the scars we all have:

<quote>Once upon a time, a great samurai warrior with two great swords hanging from his belt approached a monk and said, 'Tell me, holy monk, about heaven and hell.' The orange-robed monk looked up at the warrior from where he sat and replied in a quiet voice, 'I cannot tell you about heaven and hell because you are much too stupid.' The samurai warrior was filled with rage. He clenched his fists and gave a fierce shout as he reached for one of his swords. 'Besides that you are very ugly,' added the monk. The samurai's eyes flamed and his heart was incensed as he drew his sword. 'That,' said the little monk, 'is hell.' Struck by the power of the words and the wisdom of this teaching, the warrior dropped his sword, bowed his head and sank to his knees. 'And that,' said the monk, 'is heaven.'</quote>

So the words of the monk touched old wounds, perhaps wounds made when the warrior was a child and was called stupid, dumb or ugly and his wounds caused hell to capture him. Hays writes how we all have wounds - old ones and new ones - and whenever the "monster" appears, when hell breaks loose, we know that our old wounds are talking, guiding us. So these wounds have to be confronted - and can actually work to our advantage! When we can harness these emotions - (or at least get in touch with them on their most basic, primal level) we are using tools that can help develop mindset (to my mind anyway) because under the influence of the "chemical cocktail" it is precisely these most basic of emotions and reactions that will rule us like that monster!

Yes, too little time is spent on mindset in the dojo - I certainly have been trying to impart more of my limited knowledge on the subject in my classes since finding this forum last year!

As for the scenarios above from a more physical standpoint:

1) When I was delivering pizza in my college days - not only did I carry a small gun in my money pouch I NEVER got out of my car without checking out the residence as best as I could - sure - nothing is foolproof but "out of nowhere" is not possible - increased awareness is the key to that one...

2)Mindset of being prepared to fight to the death comes to mind - but perhaps more practically a reminder to keep your affairs in order and live each day as if it is your last - it very well could be!

3) Always a problem from a female standpoint! Add to that a distinct disadvantage in upper body strength and sometimes it seems hopeless from a strength perspective - so - how to train for that? Constant physical training coupled with work on mindset and cultivation of awareness to avoid the situation if at all possible - when it comes down to sheer brute strength - the loser in that match will need either an equalizer in a life or death situation or rely on other techniques of speed and agility - imho.

Meanwhile - use those wounds.

Peace,
Lori


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 1999 7:08 am 
Some excellent points made, so I will not embarrass myself by trying to cover similar territory in a far poorer manner. This thread has a basis similar to one I was going to start. First of all, please do not read more into what I am about to say. By that I mean I am not claiming to be super conditioned etc. I am sure there are many who condition more and harder than my friends and I.

However, about two years ago some black belt friends and I began to meet Saturday mornings to workout. Most of this is dedicated to conditioning. I posted what we do a while back on Tom's Fitness forum when Bill engaged him in some discussions, so I won't bore you with them again. Bottom line is that, while we did improve conditioning, what really improved was the effectiveness of our strikes.

Sadly I discovered by learning through that process (I don't claim to have been any better off than anyone else) is that many martial artists have a misplaced faith in their techniques. They believe they have a strike or kick that will indeed stop that behemoth charging in upon them.

The fact is that unless they have actually struck someone who is truly conditioned, or pumped up on the chemical cocktail, they really have no idea. I have had second degree black belts take four shots before their sidekicks actually contacted my body, only to bounce off and land on their butts. I have had higher ranks throw roundhouse kicks to thigh and ribs with no effect. Again it was not MY ABILITY as much as their LACK OF ABILITY. If my conditioning could take the blows, what effect could they have on a chemical cocktail filled determined attacker? (I do have an advantage in knowing what and where the blows are going to land. I am working on a drill to get by this problem as well.)

Yet, until that moment they were certain they had the stopping power required. Some leave and go back to their self delusion rather than face the work required. Only a few have embraced the lesson learned and started to come to that Saturday morning class.

Those flashy fast loudly smacking kicks are worthless without the proper body mechanics to deliver true mass into the strike. As asked by Van Sensei do we have what it takes to handle real situations? Those powerful kicks of yours, can they really hurt? Have you pushed your conditioning enough to know? Nothing sadder than seeing the face of someone who threw everything they had into a blow with no effect. (Sorry yes there is -- seeing that person never come back.)


I continue to try and learn.


Rick


P.S. Those who did return learned fast.


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 1999 12:17 pm 
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Lori, very perceptive...

To all, re: training. I offer no specifics because I think we each have specific weaknesses that need to be worked on to make us feel "more confident". If you feel more confident, than that's once less thing to be bothered by in dealing with a situation.

My personal rule of thumb. Train as much and as hard as you can with the time you can allot to it. Train with different partners. Perhaps, it is because I am small and most are larger than me. Size is a consideration but it is NOT an overwhelming obstacle. This is not brag just a statement of fact. I have dropped way bigger guys than me in practice and in real life. I work more on knockout power, explosive movement and reflex than on my "Uechi conditioning." I work on my mindset with pain by learning to control and ignore it whenever it occurs in practice. I don't expect to trade strikes back and forth in a real situation. I expect to knock the opponent out with 2 to 3 hits max. And these hits have and will be targeted towards non conditionable areas. This requires accuracy of strikes. I practice these. If the opponent doesn't go down, well get to the equalizer or be gone. The day these don't work, then that may be the day that I'm GONE.

Think critically about it. Don't obsess about it. This just makes you less confident and less effective. And, as always, just train.

david

P.S. The FMA guys train for flow, movement, reflex and hard, accurate strikes. They don't do much conditioning, if any. How does one "condition" against the slash or a sharp edge, a bonebreaking strike from a stick (or the bullet for that matter...)? There is a certain premise here worth considering. Think about it.

[This message has been edited by david (edited 02-13-99).]


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 1999 1:10 am 
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How do we train ?

Points to ponder:

1] < Perhaps we could work on having students get tackled on the mat
by some big, burly person and have them see what they can do to
get out of it. If the answer is nothing, then the student knows they
have a weak area. > __Cecil


2] < too many time we martial artists get locked
in one paradigm and can't shift gears. We really think our magical
stances are going to protect us from every conceivable form of
attack.> ___Cecil

3] < In my experience, Judoka do train
correctly with resistance apparatus. They have been getting
wonderful advice since Draeger and Ishikawa (1961.) Unlike the
great majority of karateka and gung-fu players they are also used
to hurt.> ___Elkins -sensei

4] < How can we train for these scenarios? Again IMHO minimize dojo
focus on point sparring. Encourage a continuum of movement from
entering to trapping/striking to grappling to finishing > ___Elkins -sensei

5] < Allow, no - demand,
use of technique from the wonderful kata we possess. Encourage
creativity in elaboration of bunkai from all levels of student
seniority.> __Elkins-sensei

6] < It is particularly tragic when
young people who have Black Belts are beaten up and/or raped.
Invariably, they had not been exposed to the mindset we seek to
cultivate and feel there is something terribly wrong with them as
people and martial artists that they allowed this insult to be
perpetrated upon them..."I should have done my triple spinning
upside down crescent unstoppable dragon whips his tail technique!"
I feel very strongly that it is criminal for us to allow students to
leave the dojo with this type of perspective.> ___Elkins-sensei

7] < under the influence of the "chemical cocktail" it is precisely these most basic of
emotions and reactions that will rule us like that monster!__ sometimes it
seems hopeless from a strength perspective - so - how to train for
that? Constant physical training coupled with work on mindset and
cultivation of awareness to avoid the situation if at all possible -
when it comes down to sheer brute strength - the loser in that
match will need either an equalizer in a life or death situation or rely
on other techniques of speed and agility - imho.< ___Lori-san

8] < many martial artists have a misplaced faith in their techniques. They believe the have a strike or kick that will indeed stop that behemoth charging
in upon them.> __Rick Wilson -sensei

9] < Yet, until that moment they were certain they had the stopping
power required. Some leave and go back to their self delusion
rather than face the work required. Nothing
sadder than seeing the face of someone who threw everything they
had into a blow with no effect. > ___Rick Wilson-sensei

10] I work more on knockout power, explosive movement and reflex than on my "Uechi conditioning." I work on my mindset with pain by learning to control and ignore it whenever it occurs in practice. I don't expect to trade strikes back
and forth in a real situation. I expect to knock the opponent out
with 2 to 3 hits max. And these hits have and will be targeted
towards non conditionable areas. This requires accuracy of strikes.
I practice these. If the opponent doesn't go down, well get to the
equalizer or be gone. > ___David

11] < The FMA guys train for flow, movement, reflex and hard,
accurate strikes. They don't do much conditioning, if any. How
does one "condition" against the slash or a sharp edge, a
bonebreaking strike from a stick (or the bullet for that matter...)?
There is a certain premise here worth considering. Think about it.> __David







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Van Canna


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 1999 6:46 am 
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"The FMA guys train for flow, movement, reflex and hard, accurate strikes. They don't do much conditioning, if any. How does one "condition" against the slash or a sharp edge, a bonebreaking strike from a stick (or the bullet for that matter...?"
David

I usually stay fairly quiet on this forum, but once in awhile something comes up that I can discuss intelligently. My main focus is the Filipino arts, and I live in LA, a major center or FMA activity. I train at the Inosanto Academy, a well known school.

Many FMAists don't really condition themselves much against these things mentioned, except mentally. I have seen a major change in the way I look at fighting just by being told about knives and their effects by people who have faced them or used them for real, and by thinking about their nature, and realizing that a successful defense against a knife may still lead to many stitches and perhaps a need for a few pints or of blood or plasma, especially if the attacker is skilled, or, unskilled, but jerky, vicious, largely uncommitted in their attacks, and unpredicatable. I think that with many FMArtists, the mental game is especially important, and the willingness to accept that you must keep going evne when you are hurt in order to survive is a major point of importance.

A sidenote: Several months ago someone who had once studied at my school for eight years but who had been away from training for (?) years was attacked by a mugger with a knife. He was badly wounded, but disarmed and incapacitiated his attacker, and was able to get help in time to survive.

Many of us are hobbyists and not that willing to open ourselves up to serious injury in training, and with a weapons-based art the potential for injury is (for the most part) far greater than the injuries a kick or punch can give.

Still, there are exceptions. We have almost totally unprotected sparring at my school for those who want it. Fencing masks, cups, gloves (or field hockey gloves), and knee pads are used with fairly light sticks. I have not yet done this, but I believe that only stick attacks can be done here. I know of other schools that do similar training.

For those who desire, the Dog Brothers (also students of my school for the most part) do similar sparring, but with heavy sticks, and no rules. They do three minute rounds and in addition to any mutually agreed upon non-sharp weapon(s), any physical attack can be used. I have seen one gathering of the pack, and while bruises and welts are the rule, sometimes bloody cuts, stitches, bleeding lumps, and broken bones are inflicted. These gatherings are open to any who wish to enter.

BTW, many fights at the Dog Brother events often end up on the ground. Even a skilled stick fighter may not be able to drop a dermined foe before he closes. Even a solid blow or two from a heavy stick wielded by a skilled fighter may not drop an attacker. Many of those who are taken down are skilled at unarmed arts that among other things employ knee srikes. There are lessons to be learned here for those willing to cross-train.

Also, most FMArtists I know study at least one other style. In truth, we tend to be big proponents of cross-training. The FMAists I know of have all sorts of arts in their backgrounds. Many study arts that involve sparring with heavy contact, like Muay Thai, Western Boxing (the Filipinos have also been pretty into boxing), or Judo. Such arts especially teach pain, and how to endure it while dealing it out.

I am not yet particularly hard-core in my training, but I am an intermediate level student in Bruce Lee's fighting style, and do a bit of Muay Thai. I have eaten more than a few painful blows, and my training will only escalate this tendency. Still, even our gentle training in the unarmed part of the Filipino arts often involves (at least for me and other demonstaration types used by the teacer) being the recipient of light to moderate blows to the kidneys and various nerve clusters, or painful joint locks. We are conditioned to pain to some degree that way, as well as by the very frequent errors in our two person drills that lead to hand shots, or blows to other areas. I can't count how many times my fingers have been nailed by someone's stick. I have met more than a few who have broken fingers, though thankfully I have escaped that fate. Some with broken fingers still train.

Anyway, the above may help you understand a bit about how some FMArtist learn to live with pain.

Scaramouche


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 Post subject: WHEN VIOLENCE COMES
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 1999 11:12 am 
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Scaramouche,

Thanks for your comments and welcome.

Your perspective is similar to what I have experienced so far with FMA's.

The "conditioning" i'm referring to is a set of set exercises in Uechi practice where partners will rub and strike, with increasing force, certain areas of the body to "toughen" them up. You have monsters who can really bang in conditioning. Some get to the point of believing this makes them almost "invincible." I disagree. There're parts of the body that just can't be conditioned against an all out hit. Again, it certainly can't be conditioned against a weapons attack. They're better off learning to move and protect their heads. And, some never do and expect you to stand there and trade punches/kicks to the body. That's the premise they are taking with them onto the streets.

The FMA folks are "conditioning" (mindsetting) through their practice which involves weapons use. There is no illusion about "invincibility" because just the number of hits sustained and given through drills/sparring work against that. If those were real edges, real hits, with real intention, then both parties involved will get hurt, but only one will surely be left standing. So, the point is to develop the reflexes and movement and learn to get the hits in fast, hard and accurately.

Yes, a significant number of the FMA guys, I've met seem to practice or have practiced something else. That's becoming increasing true of Uechi folks. It's a good thing... (stealing someone's line.)

Re: "The Dog Brothers". Love their names. Already heard of their (in)famous, open practices in the park. What's their motto, "higher consciousness through harder contact..." They have a web site and have tapes on their stick training, if anyone is interested.

david


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