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David:

I agree with many of your comments about conditioning.

I look at conditioning as just one tool in the chest. (Although for me, an important one. Don't consider myself fast.) When attacking you must concentrate solely on the attack. If you are concerned about the body weapon you are using (shins) or about taking a hit as you attack, then your attack will lose a necessary ingredient. To paraphrase the sword saint "Think nothing of winning or losing, only of killing your enemy." So to me conditioning is a weapon.

In my school we stress movement and avoidance as you strike back. I emphasize to my students that if you hit them more than they hit you then you might have a chance to make it through. So try not to get hit. I would much rather they got the job done without being hit. However, taking a blow is something that they have to be able to do and have experienced. Getting hit is a real possibility that must be prepared for. If they have never experienced it....

No, not much you can do to condition for a knife strike. And, I have found that those who fight by rushing in through blows do very poorly when training against a knife.

Just to clarify. My point on conditioning posted previously was that as our conditioning increased so then did our striking ability. Being able to let loose showed us and others that what we thought would be a devastating blow simply wasn't. The fact is that if a person has never let anyone have it, it can lead to a self delusion. By being conditioned we surpassed the strikes. So, our strikes had to improve. My point was that the chemical cocktail provides its own conditioning. Those who have never been in a real fight and had to stop an attacker can have a false impression of just what their blows will do if all they strike is unconditioned partners (or not on the chemical cocktail).

Those, like yourself, who have the experience to know what they can do are not self deluded. But there are those who have never even been in a fight and believe in the invincibility of their strikes, or, as you say, their conditioning.

(Conditioning is another story. Those who only take Sanchin checking strikes straight on to the stomach are also in for a tragic surprise.)

Rick

Rick,

Sorry if I seem to be painting with a broad brush with my "conditioning" comments. I don't include you and, as you already pointed out in your own post, "while we improved conditioning, what we really improved was the effectiveness of our strikes" through whatever drills you were working on.

More than anything else, I am reacting to Van's sensei's friend and other "big" guys who do wrestling, football, whatever. They have this overconfidence that can be used and worked against them. But, we have some of our own Uechi guys who want to match pound for pound "toughness" with them via their Uechi conditioning...

We small guys and gals ain't never going to win that game. We need to accept that and get on with it. We can beat them with better tactics. That's what we should focus and practice on. Make these tactics work as fast, strong and accurate as possible. How to do this? By hard training. Through this training, believe that you can win that you can overcome that supposed advantage.

My friend Debbie is a good example. She is my size. She does TKD. She doesn't do "Uechi conditioning". Yet, she spars with intensity. She takes the hits and gets on with it. Simply, she just wants to get her hits in. She worries about and takes care of the bruises afterwards. Put a knife or stick in her hand. She goes right for the kill. Her conditioning comes from just practicing hard. Practicing hard is part of her training in mindset. There is no getting around it. If you are taking martial arts for self-defense, then you have to train hard and mix it up. You need to practice your tactics for the knockout/kill.

If you think your conditioning gives you an edge mentally in using your body weapons, go for it. Whatever works. But, this is mostly for other folks, lurkers, whatever out there, don't mistake your body conditioning for the tactics that will take the opponent out. Again, don't be frightened by the opponent's supposed advantage of size. There are targets he simply can't condition. You want to see someone drop, POP him in the throat, the bigger the better. Want to bend him down, POP him in the groin, once, twice, three or more times if you have to, and then POP him in ear, temple, throat/nose or whatever soft spot on the head that presents itself.

People get too intimidated by size/conditioning/physique. You big guys who want to really smart, work with the quick little guy. We'll get three in on you for one you put in. Worry about that small aggressive guy on the street. Put an equalizer in his hand, the big opponent bcomes literally chopped liver.

Rick, this brings me to your and my favorite "sword saint". Musashi urged one to think of nothing but killing the enemy in a confrontation. This was the mindset which he developed through training and real engagements. But, his book is really all about tactics of engagement. And, as he admonished after almost every section, "You must study these well."

respectfully,

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited 02-14-99).]

< I train at the Inosanto Academy, a well known school. >

Indeed-- great reputation ! You are very lucky -, Scaramouche san , and welcome to my forum ; you have much to contribute !

MORE POINTS TO PONDER :

1] < the mental game is especially important,
and the willingness to accept that you must keep going even
when you are hurt in order to survive is a major point of
importance. > __ Scaramouche

Yes; this is a real problem __I will report some other views on this in a separate thread !



2] < Many of us are hobbyists and not that willing to open ourselves up
to serious injury in training > __ Scaramouche

Again , it is the will that makes the difference !


3] < For those who desire, the Dog Brothers (also students of my
school for the most part) do similar sparring, but with heavy
sticks, and no rules.>__ Scaramouche

Students who are willing to enter such frays have it all over the "make believe leg breakers"


4] < Even a solid blow or two from a heavy stick wielded by a skilled fighter may not drop an attacker. Many of those who are taken down are skilled at unarmed arts
that among other things employ knee strikes. There are lessons to
be learned here for those willing to cross-train. > .>__ Scaramouche

While in Florida , I was talking to Bob Otto , Godan , six foot four inches , 230 pounds , great sensei , very strong and with a wealth of law enforcement experience , including swat team and prison guard ! He will tell you how dismaying it is to hit an out of control maniac with all your "killer" techniques to no avail !




5] <
Many study
arts that involve sparring with heavy contact, like Muay Thai,
Western Boxing (the Filipinos have also been pretty into boxing),
or Judo. Such arts especially teach pain, and how to endure it
while dealing it out.> __ Scaramouche


6] < We are conditioned to
pain to some degree that way, as well as by the very frequent
errors in our two person drills that lead to hand shots, or blows to
other areas. > Scaramouche


7] < The "conditioning" I'm referring to is a set of set exercises in Uechi
practice where partners will rub and strike, with increasing force,
certain areas of the body to "toughen" them up.__ Some get to the
point of believing this makes them almost "invincible. Some expect you to stand there and trade punches/kicks to the body. That's the premise they are
taking with them onto the streets. > __David

Yes, this is a comical problem for some of us who delight in showing off or ' suckering ' someone into a ' leg banging' contest ….you know " My *** is bigger than yours " Syndrome ! Then the ' victim ' gets pissed and drops them with a chin shot ! I have seen this happen at Dan tests !


8] < The FMA folks are "conditioning" (mindsetting) through their
practice which involves weapons use. There is no illusion about
"invincibility" because just the number of hits sustained and given
through drills/sparring work against that. If those were real edges,
real hits, with real intention, then both parties involved will get
hurt, but only one will surely be left standing.> __David


9] < look at conditioning as just one tool in the chest. (Although for
me, an important one] __Rick Wilson-sensei

That is the healthy way to look at it !


10] < taking a blow is something that they
have to be able to do and have experienced. Getting hit is a real
possibility that must be prepared for. If they have never
experienced it.... > Rick Wilson-sensei

You must believe that street fighting is ugly , hard and brutal ! you will be punched , hit so hard , so fast , so viciously that you will feel your teeth coming loose and your breath will be knocked out of you at breakneck speed __ that is __if you are up against a worthy opponent , not a staggering homeless !

The truth is that most of us will not be prepared for vicious close in hand to hand combat no matter how we train , and you will have to give some serious thought to the force continuum concept !


11] < Just to clarify. My point on conditioning posted previously was
that as our conditioning increased so then did our striking ability.
Being able to let loose showed us and others that what we
thought would be a devastating blow simply wasn't. The fact is
that if a person has never let anyone have it, it can lead to a self
delusion. (Conditioning is another story. Those who only take Sanchin
checking strikes straight on to the stomach are also in for a tragic
surprise.) > __ Rick Wilson-sensei


12] < There is no getting around it. If you
are taking martial arts for self-defense, then you have to train
hard and mix it up. You need to practice your tactics for the kill. don't mistake your body conditioning for the tactics that will take the opponent out! "sword saint". Musashi
urges one to think of nothing but killing the enemy in a
confrontation. This is mindset which he develop through training
and real engagements. But, his book is really all about tactics of
engagement.>__David

< Put an equalizer in the hand, the big opponent
becomes literally chop liver.> __David







--





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Van Canna

David:

Well said!

Rick

"< It is particularly tragic when
young people who have Black Belts are beaten up and/or raped.
Invariably, they had not been exposed to the mindset we seek to
cultivate and feel there is something terribly wrong with them as
people and martial artists that they allowed this insult to be
perpetrated upon them..."I should have done my triple spinning
upside down crescent unstoppable dragon whips his tail technique!"
I feel very strongly that it is criminal for us to allow students to
leave the dojo with this type of perspective.> ___Elkins-sensei "

Part of the problem may also be this: if we tell people the truth, will they NOT come back or find someone else who will lie to them? I think we know the answer to this question.

Example: Now that I've gotten the 2nd Brown belt (2nd Gup), people peek in the class and ask me questions about the style if one of the teachers is not there. I had a guy tell me he was interested in taking classes and was asking me if we do what Steven Segal does because "Man, I want to learn how to break bones. Isn't that Aikido that he does??" When I told him that Segal does Aikijitsu and Chinna, not Aikido, that we do Jujitsu as a complement to TangSooDo, our main focus, he seemed a little dissapointed. When I also told him that he could still take Aikido someplace and put the "jitsu" in it provided he had the motivation, he seemed more uninteresed, even almost angry that I burst his bubble. Then I told him that he may want to just try us out since the Rec center is convenient and it's a cheap way to see if he is even interested in the martial arts since we do a bit of striking and kicking AND some grappling, which could lead to learning how to break bones IN THE LONG RUN. He went back on this thing of how he wanted to learn how to break bones, but I told him that it really takes a LONG time to do the type of stuff that Segal does and that it's TOUGH to pull that stuff off in a real fight anyway, that you would have to study Chinna solely for a long period of time before you really get it. He looked like he wanted to attack me when I said that style isn't important, just get your feet wet somewhere and start training, then see where your heart wants you to go. But someone else in the class came along and started talking to him and sold him the bill of goods of how he could be like Segal and he listened to him and shrugged me off like I was a player-hater who was raining on his parade out of spite.

I was merely telling this guy the truth, telling him what I wish someone had told ME in the beginning, that you are NOT going to be Segal overnight! But this guy wanted to believe the lie. It makes me wonder that if Instructors who are making their living teaching would find their lights being cut off if they told people up front that getting a black belt will not make them invincible.

People want to believe the lie, not "Van Canna's Self Defense Realities"!!! That is the main problem!

Cecil

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Email: creativebrother@yahoo.com
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[This message has been edited by Cecil (edited 02-16-99).]