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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 1:55 am 
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Van, Allen, Tracey, JT and others interested in this topic: Today I spent 3+ hours with a firearms instructor reviewing handgun types and firing many different models and calibers.

I asked the instructor to bring as many different styles of revolvers and pistols as was practical and he surprised me with a 'Centennial' 38, .357 magnum, and .44 magnum. Also, 15 different semi automatic pistols including several Glocks, Rugers, S&Ws, a Sig Sauer 9mm, Barretta 9mm, Russian 9mm, Colt 1911.......

He spent the first 90 minutes describing to me and showing me how all of the pistols have different safeties, or none, de-cockers, mag releases.....In all, there were 11 different combinations. Boy, if dealing with a strange handgun it would be difficult to know just how it functions. Also, there are single vs double vs safety actions.

The balance of the time was spent loading and firing many of them. We practiced at 6', 15', 21, 50', 75. Sometimes while stepping backward. Sometimes aiming and sometimes bringing the gun up and pointing and firing. All different challanges.

Interesting findings regarding single action - on the .357 and .44 revolvers there was little resistance. A bit more on the pistols. Double action required deliberate pulls. The 9mm SS had double then single action. The first trigger pull was deliberate, the second required a lot of slack take up followed by a light pull. Hard to get used to.

My findings: The Glock is simple, repeatable and has a nice trigger pull. Glad I got it. The SS 9mm was the most accurate but I did not like the 2nd trigger pull and it would be my 2nd choice after the Glock. The .44 and.357 are awsome revolvers but in single action a hard sneeze would fire them. The Colt .45 1911 was nice but only single action.

I did fire the standard weight centennial .38 and it was not bad. However, I would need a larger grip as my index finger really curled around the trigger. The instructor recommended against the titanium model as being too light to be comfortably fired and felt the standard version would be better to carry, despite the weight. Van?

Again, time and money well spent. Despite standards for caliber, everything else is different. There are safeties/decockers and whatever that manufacturers put whereever they please, functioning however they please - a dangerous condition.

Next month, time permitting, I plan to take the next course which includes low light conditions, manequins, stress inducing factors. If I am going to carry a gun, I will be certain that I am well trained. If I want to go further, he has a program over a 60 day period to hone shooting skills. We shall see.

Rich


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 4:52 am 
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Any 10mm guns Rich?

My Colt Delta Elite is very accurate at short to medium ranges and has great 'stopping' power. (with hollow point bullets)

Not a popular gun. . . not sure why. Its not that much heavier than a 9mm.

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GEM


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 1999 10:42 pm 
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Rich,

< The instructor recommended against the
titanium model as being too light to be comfortably fired and felt
the standard version would be better to carry, despite the weight.
Van?>

Again , try to envision the likely deployment of the gun you carry ! You are not in law enforcement , you don't need to chase anyone or shoot long range in some police siege or gunfight ! You will / should -use that gun at bad breath range ; you have no business shooting at some perp long range ! At close range [ most likely three feet] ; you will just point your shaking hand at the assailant and 'yank ' the trigger ! You will forget about stances , sights , recoil , gun weight etc.! You will not even remember how many shots you fired !

The big question is : will that gun be there when you need it ? The featherweight gun "Titanium" Most likely will be as opposed to any other ! When you carry a gun day in and day out , you will be surprised how cumbersome and a pain they can get to be , depending on your dress mode ! I hate that feeling of the gun on me , and I have tried them all in almost every holster ! my preferred mode of carry is the ankle holster , not the best way , but most likely to be there ! And even that gets to be a pain after a while !


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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 1999 2:24 am 
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According to police statistics I read, in this day and age , over 80% of all assaults are initiated by bare handed assailants and that, unpredictably , a good many of them escalate in armed confrontations ! So the caveat is : Assume your opponent has/will use a knife or gun on you right now ! None of this " come on " and get into some stupid stance preparing to duke it out ! You are not in the dojo , you are in a street fight !

Deadly force experts , report that the ergonomics and type of handgun you might carry play a critical role in weapon presentation and retention when you shift from hand to hand to weapon drawing ! Study of real world encounters have proven the short nose [ snubnose] double action only revolver with rubberized , sometimes oversize grips , to be the best tool to hold on to in a violent struggle !

Keep in mind that the fight you fantasize out of your dojo training will not materialize at all the way you imagine it ! You will be rushed and jostled about , if not thrown to the ground , in a flash ; you might find yourself rolling and lashing out wildly out of control , both standing up or on the ground, while trying to draw the gun from holster/pocket and while the attacker is intent on taking it away from you , to your amazement ! In Weapon retention drills at Lethal force Institute , we found that the 'snub' was the best gun to hold on to and fire in a struggle , even from the pocket !

The single action pistols , cocked and locked, [ 1911] type , and other large frame handguns , were a difficult situation !

The only other semi-auto that came close to the ' snubbie' was the khar family of pistols , according to a latest poll ! Very nice , potent , 9mm---.40 cal. Guns in a diminutive package !

Remember , before you go out and buy a " cannon" envision the scenarios of presentation of your handgun ! Visualize ; do not rely on "mushin" !



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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 1999 2:44 am 
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Van sensei: When I told the firearms instructor that my next purchase was the 'Centennial' (the issue of titanium aside) he advised me to spend an extra $20 on the spot before I left the store and have a larger rubber handle installed. Good advice it seems.

As far as weapon retention (he is not a martial artist) he advises holding the gun in front and down low with both hands or in the shooting hand near the body so someone must really reach to get to it. (This is the opposite advice Raffi sensei gives for knives. He says a knife should be held in the hand on the side of the forward leg so anyone coming into you will encounter a blade immediately. Makes sense.) The instructor also showed a downward chopping motion with a 'shuto' should anyone reach to or grab onto the holster.

Advise me on this next technique - he loads a gun with 'squibs' (red paint bullets?) and practices disarms. Most people get shot and aside from the sting, are shocked at the fact they could not prevent that. Should I try this? I'm tempted.

Rich

[This message has been edited by RACastanet (edited 02-14-99).]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 1999 5:21 am 
Hello Van,

<font color=blue>The single action pistols , cocked and locked, [ 1911] type , and other large frame handguns , were a difficult situation ! </font>AND <font color=blue>
"Remember , before you go out and buy a " cannon" </font>

Those big handguns are not meant for everyone and probably not for most. I used to hear complaints from people about the .45 a lot such as .45s ARE hard to conceal (but I was so skinny then I had ample space between my bones) because of their size, AND hard to control and hold on to a target because of their heft.

Rich,

Are you getting into paintballs?

Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]



[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 02-15-99).]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:10 pm 
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Location: Boca Raton, FL
Rich,

I have been following your recent trek into the land of "carry" with great interest since I too have recently gone through the same thing. I acquired my Florida CCW permit and have joined up with a local outfit that promotes and provides instruction in combat, as opposed to target, shooting. My weapon of choice turned out to be the Glock 27 in .40 S&W. I checked out the Titanium .38 and many others, but the little Glock works for me.

Anyway, to the point. "Second, while almost everything in print on the use of a gun for self defense begins with the draw and ends with the last shot, you have to understand that when it comes to court, the judge and jury will be looking at flashbacks from long before you went for your pistol, and the whole ordeal won't end for months or years, if ever." (Massad Ayoob, In The Gravest Extreme)

Assuming the you are justified in using your weapon from a criminal standpoint, there is a very good chance that you will also end up in a civil action. Have you inquired as to whether your homeowners insurance policy provides coverage in the event of a "self defense" related situation? From what I can gather, most, if not all, homeowners policies will not provide you with any type of coverage since a "self defense" shooting is the result of a deliberate action on your part, and not an unforseen act of God or nature.

Van, what would you recommend that we look for, if anything, in regards to acquiring some sort of liability coverage in these situations?

Moe Mensale


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 1999 8:43 pm 
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You can buy a personal Umbrella liability policy , over and above your underlying homeowner's liability limits ! Most , but not all , umbrellas will extend coverage to defense and indemnification of the insured [ you ] -- if the intentional act , empty hand or otherwise , was as a result of self defense ! You must check with your agent to be sure your policy will cover this ! An umbrella is usually written for $ 1 M and it only costs about $200 per year !



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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 1999 12:14 am 
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Van, Moe, Allen.........
I purchase $2miilion excess liability insurance from Amica of Providence for about $200 a year. To get this coverage they must also carry home and/or auto at $300,000.00 liability. I called last week to make certain that a martial arts hobbiest teaching at the health club (me) is covered and they were not sure. The manager is checking into it.

Paintballs........what an interesting idea. No, I have not gotten in to that, at least not yet. But how about at camp????? GEM sensei - how about chisters vs. no-chisters in a paintball matchup at camp? Winner gets bragging rights until the next year. Let's see, .....I want to be on Evan's team.

Rich


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 1999 3:31 am 
If you wear your green uniform I'll have Dennis use white paint.....

I'm not into paintball, but I hear it is stinging fun and a way to checkout your firearm prowess in a non-penetrating manner.

Allen

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Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 1999 3:20 pm 
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Perhaps we can get the Maritime Academy to let us use their big boat to stage the "fight"!

Sounds like fun. . . but camp is not the place I'm afraid.

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GEM


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 1999 1:34 am 
That old black hull could use a fresh coat.

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Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 1999 2:19 am 
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paint ball would give you a real taste [ well almost]of what you really are under stress !You would see all your great training vanish and leave town while you look like a klutz doing the chicken walk ! Much the same way you would look if you were stripped of your gi and black belt and sensei Tracy Rose would throw you [only wearing your unwashed underwear] up against a monster in the Redman suit !

You guys like to get hit with buckets of ice water ?

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Van Canna


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 1999 4:28 am 
Paintball is a real rush. The suckers hurt too, make no mistake about it. It can really teach you a lot about yourself.

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maurice richard libby
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 1999 12:26 pm 
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Never done the paintball thing, though a couple of my buddies keep asking me to.

An interesting story about mindset, one of my buddies did paintball with his company. Anyway, one of the office warriors got my friend out (he's "dead", out of the game." But, the office warror went into overdrive and kept shooting my buddy. My buddy said, "sonofb####!" Walked straight up to office warrior, grabbed him, put his paint ball gun against the guy's head and empty the clip... The line between war games and war ain't too far to cross.

david


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