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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 1999 1:52 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Van et al: John T. made an interesting comment in another forum regarding a state law declaring two pieces of wood tied by a string illegal. Virginia has that same law, ie. nunchuckus are not legal.

I have read Virginia's concealed weapons rule carefully and many other devices are likewise outlawed. Period. My concealed weapon permit is very strictly worded to cover handguns only. My .45 auto is acceptable and my 'two sticks tied together by a string' are not.

Hmmm.......What are they afraid of?

Regards, Rich


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 1999 4:54 am 
Your .45 is legal and a couple of chunks of wood aren't (non-chunks).

A lot of states have laws banning the carrying of all sorts of martial arts weapons (I dare make this statement while the one on banning Kickboxing in Mass. is under investigation). Interesting is that you can still go into the store and buy them. Are chucks illegal to carry or illegal to carry conceiled in Va.?

I wonder if chainsaw chains and chainsaws are still legal. A gassed-up chainsaw in the back of your pickup truck can be a hell of a deterrent.<font color=orange>

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Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email] </font>



[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 02-26-99).]


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 1999 12:40 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Rich & Allen,

Go figure....

Florida generally does not prohibit the open carry of weapons (except firearms). Technically, I can carry a knife, machete, bow, cross-bow, sword, even nunchaku, almost anywhere - totally legal - so long as they are not concealed. Amazing, huh? The major problem with this is that most police officers usually have a different interpretation of the statutes.

The Florida CCW permit, however, allows for any weapon, firearm or non-firearm, to be carried concealed. Good thing cause I don't really want to become a test case.

An "interesting" aside is that Florida considers nunchakus to be similar to a firearm, that is, a deadly weapon, but yet I can legally carry them openly but not my Glock 27! A 1986 District Court of Appeals case determined that "unlike common objects which may be deadly only because of their use or threatened use, the sole modern use of nunchaku is to cause great bodily harm." Obviously, the great legal mind that wrote this opinion did not consider the many rice and wheat fields of southern Florida where the humble nunchaku is daily put to agricultural use! That's what happens when non-MA's start legislating us MA's (but that's another thread).

Like I said, go figure...

Moe (hey, are you happy to see me or are those just nunchuks in your pants?) Mensale


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 1999 10:23 am 
Hi Moe.

I suspect chucks must be a popular gang implements, hence the laws. But chains were once popular too, and I wonder how many states outlaw carrying chains in your car. Unless you weld razor blades on one end chains are used to tow other vehicles, right.

Rationalizing though, if I had thoughts of carrying either a knife or a gun for self-defense, and I could get into more trouble by using the blade and given the effectiveness of each, my choice would be clear.<font color=green>

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Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 1999 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
"Florida generally does not prohibit the open carry of weapons (except firearms). Technically, I can carry a knife, machete, bow,cross-bow, sword, even nunchaku, almost anywhere - totally legal - so long as they are not concealed."

I believe Virginia's law about the subject is similar. I asked a friend of mine, a former self defense teacher, and my Sempi (so I'm using Japese terms even though I study a Korean art primarily), and he told me that as long as the weapon is in plain view, it's okay. Still, I can't imagine the cops in VA not passing up the opportunity to at least say something to you about carrying a weapon.

I want to know if carrying two sticks, as in for Escrima/Arnis training is considered carrying a concealed weapon. Good grief, you can grap two sticks nearly anywhere. Besides, I don't know what all of the legislation is about. If your weapon is concealed, you still have to GET TO IT FIRST! I used to think that I'd be invincible if I carried a gun until someone on this forum (I believe it was Mr. Canna) pointed out that you have to get the gun out first before you can use it; that some cops have been stabbed or beaten because the crook got to them before they could open the holster and shoot!!!

And these worries, on top of legislation in some states to regulate the martial arts, out law kickboxing: it sounds a lot like Big Brother to me. Yet, all I'm trying to do is be a citizen who can protect himself from the lawbreakers!

Cecil

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 1999 4:54 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
JD,

"Nunchuks in pants?" "Butterfly knife?" Hmmmm..... (best I don't go there).


Cecil,

It all depends on HOW you are carrying the sticks. Open carry (at least in Florida) means just that - as long as they are in FULL view, then there shouldn't be a problem. Again, a lot of it depends on how well versed the officer is in the specific statutes. But once they are concealed, even partially, then you better have your CCW right next to your license.

You also brought up a good point. Any weapon, concealed or not, is only useful IF you can engage it quickly and efficiently. Many people that carry a gun, including many police officers, also carry an air of invincibility with them. Many of them have been severely hurt or killed because they COULDN'T access their weapon before the assailant got to them. And this makes a hell of a good reason to maintain, and even improve, your empty hand skills, because they just may give you that extra second or two you may need to fend off an attacker and draw your weapon.


Allen,

Ah, yes, chains. I do recall that in my youth, some of my more "fashionable" associates used them as an implement with which to hold up their pants from draging on the ground and ruining the pant hem, thereby saving their dear mothers the necessity of making time consuming repairs.

Chains are not really "big" down here because, frankly, it just doesn't snow a hell of a lot. Also, if you claimed the chain was for towing your car, you would be immediately arrested anyway since Boca Raton doesn't allow cars that need towing or cost less than $40K. Now, Ft. Lauderdale is a different subject!

By the way, what's with that Mass ordinance about kicking someone with your shoes on? Is it permissable for me to remove my shoes first and then beat the son of a bitch with them? Are flipflops and Hushpuppies exempt?

Moe


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 1999 5:26 am 
Yeah, Cecil. In New England, it can take many seconds to get a gun out when it is conceiled beneath layers of coat, sweaters, scarf, etc.

I remember getting cold-cocked and knocked out once when I was removing an expensive jacket to engage in a fist-fight, except the punch came my way too fast.

Going for a gun under a jacket is even slower. And be careful you don't shoot yourself too. OOH! Guns are dangerous.

If a shodden shoe can be considered a dangerous weapon, then maybe anything else can be too.<font color=green>

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Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 1999 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2075
Location: Boston, MA
The laws on concealed carry weapons varied greatly from state to state and make little sense or are inconsistent at best.

I read a column on Tactical Knives that seems to give some logic to laws. Essentially, except for firearms, everything is subject to discretion of the arresting police officer and the judge at a later date. Basically, if a cop arrests a bad guy, and the s/he has a "concealed weapon" that is another thing to pile on to the charges and to make the arrest stick. If you're good guy and have not committed an assault, chances are the cop will leave you alone even if s/he notices the "weapon" or a worse confiscate it. This of course leaves a lot of discretion to the officer. More than some of us want.

This seems true because on my Wednesday workouts, we do work with different weapons. Kali sticks, jos, knives, etc. Afterwards we always go to eat in a Chinatown restuarant around ten at night. And, more than half the time, there is a cop or cops eating there (? dinner break). Four or five guys walking in carrying sticks openly or in weapon bags (which are obviously such) and we have never been harassed by the cops. Not once.

Interesting incident last week. After workout and dinner, me and a training partner walked out, went around the corner and saw this drunk and sober young guy going at it. The young guy had a friend standing on the side. The drunk and the young guy were intent on going at it, though the drunk really wanted it more swinging slow punches and throwing looping football type kicks. It looked like a slaughter ahead. Both my friend and I thought about breaking it up. But seeing the intent of the two and the buddy stand on the side, I thought better not to intervene. If I try to stop it, I may get hit by the drunk, the young guy and or his friend. Then my friend would have to jump in and we both had knives on plus sticks. The whole incident would have just escalated... So, we stood and watched. Didn't seem to necessary anyway. The young guy was pretty ineffective, missing a bunch of swings. Finally, he knocked the guy down with a push/shove. He then kicked the guy in the head several times. The drunk stopped moving and the guys quickly split. I walked over, looked at the drunk and saw that he was unconscious. He also had a cut on his forehead, in a v shape pattern, gushing out blood. I thought, "ah sh##!" There was a pay phone right near by. So I called the cops and the ambulance. Didn't want to leave the guy lying unconscious on the freezing sidewalk. By then, an off duty emt guy who saw the confrontation from a restaurant, joined us by the guy. I flipped the guy on his back as his arms and legs were twisted up. I asked the emt whether he can wait for the ambulance. He said, yes. My buddy and I split. No sense in pushing things with the stuff we had on.

Clearly in the incident, the weapon was the "shodden shoe." It certainly did a number on the guy's head. If the young guy got caught, the weapon charge would be dumped on the charge of assault. The assault charge certainly would have stuck because he really could have walked away because that drunk, despite intention, posed no clear danger in his uncoordinated inebriated state.

david

[This message has been edited by david (edited 02-28-99).]


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 1999 12:41 pm 
Hi Moe.

Heh heh! Hushpuppies, heh heh. Better train them on the makiwara first, heh heh. Be careful not to stub your toe using flip-flops. This is good. I like it. I can't stop laughing. No flame intended, Moe, I needed this laugh.

About a year-and-a-half-ago I was taken aback by an article in a local newspaper about someone who was arrested and charged with assault with a deadly weapon used against a police officer (police officer is why the article made the headlines). The weapon was the "shodden shoe." I was shocked, and wrote a little post on Van's forum about it. To my amazement, I discovered this type of assault charge is not too uncommon here in the Commonwealth. Not only are your hands tied, but so are your shoelaces.

Apparantly, ANYTHING can be construed as a deadly weapon, even a little twig. And if you can explain yourself to your adversaries, that you are a black belt and want to remove your shoes (heh, heh, good one) first, then your hands and feet (here comes Miranda Pun) can be used against you too.

It's awful hard to explain how a 12" hunk of sharpened chain is used for towing purposes; crowning purposes maybe. I'll remember to check in my tire-chains at the border next time I drive to Fla. Don't need them on Daytona Beach anyway.<font color=green>
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Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]

[This message has been edited by moulton (edited 02-28-99).]


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 1999 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Allen,

Glad to have been of assistance to you! Could I possibly interest you in a pair of steel-toed flip-flops?

I guess I'll have to check all my shoes in a locker at Logan next trip up!!

Moe


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 1999 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Allen,

Glad to have been of assistance to you! Could I possibly interest you in a pair of steel-toed flip-flops?

I guess I'll have to check all my shoes in a locker at Logan next trip up!!

Moe


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 1999 6:10 am 
Moe, I hear they don't let you on a plane if you are carrying weapons, so you might not get to Logan.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 1999 12:18 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2431
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Allen et al

Interesting to see my comments on Mass. Law and Nunchakus and the "shod foot" made some ripples here.

The Nunchaku is banned, as are switch blade and double edged blades. That's by statue. The "shod foot" is not "banned" but the problem exists via common law (case law and/or precedent) where a victim had been repeatedly kicked. My gut feeling is that if you get into a sitiation where you are sufficiently frightened to be in fear of your life or serious bodily harm----use the shod foot. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.


I will do more research on the origins of "shod foot cases" as it does not appear in Mass. Statutory Law per se..


JOHN T

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 1999 2:06 am 
John,

I understand that lock-blades and butterfly knives are also illegal because they fall under parts of the switchblade components of the law. Also, a single-edge must be below a minimum length before it is legal.

Please shed some light.<font color=orange>



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Allen at [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> on <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 1999 2:43 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
John,

Any research you can dig up on "shod foot" case law will be truly appreciated. I am getting really nervous about having to fly up to Boston sans shoes.

Have you ever tried to get out of the way of 150 screaming, shoving disembarking Florida tourists pushing/pulling assorted babies, baby carriages and 25 tons of various Florida fruits and mementos?

IT AIN'T PRETTY!!

Moe (watch it lady!!) Mensale


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