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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 1999 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Gentlemen:

On this issue of "arming the populace", may I suggest we consider a post-modern solution: Zero tolerance on weapons for everyone other than the police and military.

Japan does this and has (I would have to dig out the actual stats) maybe as many murders PER YEAR NATIONALLY by hand guns as some US states have in a month or two. (Their zero tolerance on weapons extends to knives, swords and others, too.)

I remind you that you cannot expect different results by repeating the same mistakes. In some instances the time comes to move forward.

Respectfully,

Gary


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 1999 9:07 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Kranj, Slovenia
LADIES AND GENTLEMAN,

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU SUPPORT GARY-SAN IN PURSUING SUCH AN HONOURABLE AND WISE GOAL.

May I share with you also some of my personal experience. Supposedly even famous Napoleon has acknowledged his surprise that there exists a place on this Earth that their inhabitants do not mind for weapons to use against each other, although they are higly skilled in Martial Arts. This contradictory statement resulted in fact that Okinawa is the safest place on Earth to walk around even nowadays (with some exception in regards to US personnel). Unfortunately it was not only once that I have been offended by drunken US servismen while studying Karate on Okinawa BUT to be offended by an Okinawan is simple unimaginable. Although I was very surprised when during my last visit I have noticed some okinawan School childreen that ran from the bus without paying the fee and that I must admitt was the most severe incident I have personally seen.

Of course one might take into consideration all the cultural differencies.

With my deepest respects,

Igor Prasnikar


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 1999 11:43 pm 
NEVER consider only the police and military have weapons.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 1999 12:22 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Hmm...... Mainland China has a pretty low crime rate but I'd rather not live there. Singapore is a really safe country as well, but if you chew gum you will be arrested. Heaven forbid you should spit on the sidewalk.

With true freedom comes some risk.

Incidentally, an article in the paper today quoted some statistics about violence and murder in schools. In spite of the recent rash of murders and violence in schools, children are safer in school than at home!!!! Think about that! Also, again in spite of the recent violence, violent incidents at schools are lower today than just ten years ago.

If we really want to save kids lives, ban bicycles, skateboards, skates, passenger side airbags..... Hell, why not just ban cars!

Also, teen pregnancy is down, teen drug use is down, teen smoking is down. Personally, I believe that our country is on an upward trend.

Regards, Rich


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 1999 3:22 am 
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Posts: 30502
Nice thread - Gary -san , thank you ;

Hmmm. Let's see : Wright and Rossi questioned 2,000 inmates serving time !

1] 81% agreed that the smart criminal will attempt to find out if the potential victim is armed

2] 74% felt that burglars avoided occupied buildings for fear of being shot by the occupants

3] 57% felt the typical criminal feared being shot more by a citizen than the useless cops

4] 57% of ' handgun predators' had encountered armed citizens and were fouled

5] 39% did not go through with their plans for committing a crime for fear the victim was armed

6] 69% of ' handgun predators' personally knew other criminals who were scared off or shot by armed victims

v It is both illogical and inconsistent for a government to say people have a right to life and a right to self defense but no right to own the tools to defend their lives !

v Your premise Gary is very Utopian and it ignores the complex causes of crime and senseless killing , criminal justice system and population disparities , and the failure of our government to deal effectively with violent and recidivist criminals !

v Example == Switzerland …more guns per capita than the US ! Each citizen is required by the government to have a rifle at home to participate in group training for the perpetuating of the freedom concept of the nation , free for the last 700 years ! No violence , no murders , just convivial living ! The Swiss are very sophisticated Europeans !

v Japan == Weapons control for centuries to ensure the absolute rule of the emperors and war lords in order to exploit the labor of the serfs , no swords but for the samurais who served the rulers ! Feudalistic and oppressive social order ; a person had no rights and one obligation ; total obedience !

v There is no more right to privacy in Japan than the right to own a firearm ; few Americans would want to live under such laws which originated in political absolutism and control over defenseless people ! Japan ensures to remain a homogenous society by hating all foreigners and discouraging a diverse populace so as to perpetuate hegemony over it's citizens ; no wonder crime is low !

v A few years ago , I investigated a case in Boston , where this Japanese businessman , despondent at himself for not measuring up to ' national standards ' and intolerant of The American way of life , threw himself from the window of his hotel room committing suicide !




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Van Canna


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 1999 4:35 am 
And, Van, the roundup of weapons in Pre WWII Germany also served a purpose.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 1999 3:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
one: we cannot even control the flood of illegal drugs across the borders. We could not legislate out alchohol and alchohol is as deep rooted in our culture as firearms.

two: Japan may trust their goverment. Maybe 2000 years of fuedal domination has done something to thinking. Everytime I look in the paper, some politician is doing something that is against the law for me to do. Anti gun senator in DC shoots a tresspasser in the senator's pool. The senator used an illegal and unregisted pistol in his unwarranted and illegal attack (the pool guy was drunk and jumped into the wrong pool). Meanwhile the senator was firmly anti-gun.

You cannot legislate tolerance and peace, you can only educate. People won't carry guns when they feel as though they don't have to.

btw check out the Lott report. I agree with you that the penalty for crime with a firearm should be severe. Also, we as a culture/country must act to cut off the head. We must control the drugs etc. in this country. We must evaluate our infrastructure before we look for a magic, simple solution......


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 1999 7:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 100
Location: LA, CA, USA
Guns are illegal in Washington DC, New York City, and Mexico. None of these places are known for their lack of gun related crime. Making guns illegal will not keep people who really want them from getting them and using them, unless (possibly) one lives in a totalitarian state where the police can freely search your home and other property, harshly punish violators, and use informants extensively.

Criminals will still get arms if they want them, and will be happy to find most of their potential prey unarmed.

Nearly every adult Swiss male is a member of the national guard, and own assault rifles, and keep them in their homes. I have never heard of a mass-shooting in Switzerland. I believe that Finland has similar laws. I know that Israel has many, many citizens who own firearms of all sorts, and Isrealies are not known for their schoolyard shootings. The presence of many guns does not by definition lead to gun related crime.

There is a strong correlation between states allowing law abiding residents to carry concealed firearms (with permits) and a drop in gun related crimes. Rememeber the car jackings in Florida that used to make the news so much? These were of tourists who rented cars that had stickers that let the criminals know the occupants were foreign tourist, and unarmed. Once these identifying marks were gotten rid of, and concealed weapons allowed for law abiding residents, such carjacking/murders diminished radically.

Making guns illegal does not stop a place from having heavy amounts of gun realted crime. Criminals will get guns if they want them, and people who get guns to protect themselves will become criminals.

Having lots of guns in a society does not by definition mean that the society will have lots of gun realted crime. In at least some cases citizens owning firearms seems to reduce crime.

I am not a member of the NRA, or even a gun owner. I try to judge with my brain rather that with my emotions, or with pat political "solutions."

Scaramouche


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 1999 1:19 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
"...Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined."

-Patrick Henry, June 5, 1788


It strikes me that these upper class white guys, with all their shortcomings, knew something we should never take for granted.

BTW, last week, just after the Colorado tragedy, the Florida legislature signed into law reciprocity for all visiting out-of-state CCW permit holders. One step closer to a national right to carry.

Moe Mensale


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 1999 1:39 am 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 3754
Location: Richmond, VA
Moe: Great quote and great news as well.
Regards, Rich


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 1999 2:52 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 6022
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
Moe: What does this new law mean? Will my Mass. permit be honored in Florida? If so, how do I transport a weapon from MA. to FL?



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GEM


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 1999 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
If you have ever had anyone try to knock down your front door to get in your house, or kidnap your sister from your front yard while you were growing up, or try to steal from you when you were home, tell me why you should still be anti-gun?

That is a bit of my childhood life I have just put up there, and let me tell you, a gun made a difference. Due to the fact that my grandfather had passed, there was not an adult male around to protect us kids and women. But what did? A shotgun. Did gramma ever have to bust a cap in anybody? Nope. But having the shotgun around made a difference. When the idiots saw that old lady come outside with a shotgun (it's a spoof in a lot of movies about us country people but let me tell you it has some basis in reality--I once saw an old lady shoot a stray, deranged, mangy dog that was snapping and growling at us little kids; she was cocked-eyed, yet you'd think she was a Marine Corps sniper, which is why I have a healthy respect for old people) they became REAL respectful, threw out the yes and no ma'ams, and ran off with their tails between their legs. Mind you, we lived fifteen minutes away from the county police station, which you can actually get to in five minutes if you speed.

But you see, that is fifteen or five minutes too many. You just cannot expect the police officers to protect you all of the time. We didn't. Not because we felt that oh, 'cause we black or something, but because they are only human. There are other things going on that they have to deal with, they are not God, they have families too, they cannot be everywhere all of the time. Even if they have a minute response time, that is still 59 seconds too many. They can arrest somebody after the fact, but I am one person who believes in prevention.

The people I live with now--my inlaws--are totally anti-gun. I think they are fools. I tell them to their face that they are fools whenever the gun issue comes up. They actually believe that God will protect them because pastor so and so says that all you need is faith in the Holy Spirit. To which I say that I have faith that God gave me two hands to rap around a shotgun and blow a hole in anyone who ever tries to hurt my loved ones. I'm not one for handguns because I think my hands will be shaky, and plus, if I miss I figure I can hit them with the shotgun. No, I don't want to kill them, just make sure they get a dose of steel. Half of the time I believe all they have to do is see that you have the thing and they will think twice.

Two reasons I think that we have not been robbed yet is because people know that there are two men living there and I can tell that some of the local knuckle heads are afraid of me. Also, we live in a neighborhood where everyone there and the surround area for the most part is not VERY deprived. It is rare that there is a shooting or something, and if so, the crooks usually keep it among themselves. Let there be a major economic shift however, and we will be in some deep trouble.

What will change the minds of my inlaws and other anti-gunners? Sadly only one thing: they will have to get robbed or worse, in their own home. I have already told them that if anything happens where a nut comes in our house when I'm not home and hurts them or my son the blood is on their head. I know I am psycho enough to try to take anyone out who breaks in if I'm there, so I'm not worried. I still would rather have a gun because then I'd be safer. I am willing to die to protect my family, but if I gotta go, then Raulo or Brandon or Hulio or Running Bear or whoever (gotta keep it politically correct) comes in my home has got to die first!

It is not the gun that is bad it is the criminal. Criminals do not obey gun laws. Yet you anti-gun intellectuals don't get it. Yes, I know you may not always be able to get to your gun but believe me, I bet that if someone has to choose between robbing the house with the gun owner and the other guy, the other guy's house is as good as looted.

I really get angry about this gun issue even though I am not in the NRA or anything because I know first hand that a gun makes a difference. If you are worried about your child shooting themselves then you teach the child not to play with the gun, just like you tell them not to play with your kitchen knives.

But no: you anti-gun people have to learn the hard way, and as much as I get weird or questioning looks and probes from my in-laws and other people who don't think violence is EVER needed when they see me shadowboxing, doing jujitsu and stickwork, I bet you that if something happens I am the first person they will run to for some sort of protection.

I'D BE TRULY ABLE TO PROTECT THEM IF I HAD A SHOTGUN INSTEAD OF A STAFF OR ESCRIMA STICK!!!!!

Cecil

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 1999 3:08 pm 
The revalation about your grandmother is beautiful. More people should be like that.

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Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 05-04-99).]


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 1999 3:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 311
Location: Washington DC area, USA
She truly is a remarkable woman. I tell you, one day, if she ever gives me permission, her life story would make a heckuva book. No, she didn't cure cancer or the common cold, she was just determined to educate and protect her family.

I always tell her she's the strongest person I know. And I mean it. She's one of my heros.

Cecil.

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Email: <A HREF="mailto:creativebrother@yahoo.com">creativebrother@yahoo.com</A>
Web Page: http://creativebrother.freehosting.net


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 12:20 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 2437
Location: MARSHFIELD, MA. USA
Igor and Gary Senseis:

I believe simply that each man should be allowed to make his choice as to the means by which he chooses to defend himself, must as a nation must choose.

With "reason".

The point of "reasonableness" is continually the subject of debate. Where should the legal line be drawn.

Licensing-OK. Confiscation-uh uh. Citizen disarment? No thanks. Required carry laws-not my cup of tea either-it's the individuals choice.

Please, leave me to have my options, with reason and the law.

There are 150 million firearms in private ownership. Maybe 75% legal. Find a way to constitutionally deal with the other 25% and I won't need that option for myself.

Personally, I don't think house to house searches for illegal weapons, especially in minority areas is going to sit well with the ACLU.

GEM Sensei:

Florida may be one of those state where you can get a license to carry by sending a Mass License copy to the State Police.

DONT DONT DONT count on your Mass. permit being honored ANYWHERE!!!!

JOHN

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