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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 3:00 am 
George,

You have to drive through a lot of states to get to Fla, with a handgun in the car, don't you! Lots of calls required.

jr,

It's coming to that.

------------------
Allen - uechi@ici.net - http://www.uechi-ryu.org

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 05-05-99).]


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 3:09 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Gentlemen:

I feared that when I originally posted, I would become the target of a war of statistics. This was not my original intent.

Rather, I wanted everyone to image a potential paradigm where people would not be forced to consider carrying weapons. Utopian? Yes. Idealistic? Yes.

But as I said in another thread, if this is not viable, perhaps we should return to the old West. Everyone should carry guns on their hips and then we would not need to hypothesize about who's carrying and who is not.

If you would like to discuss stats, however, to me this is the only statistic that truly matters: The number of reported defenses by those who own guns vs. the number of people killed by guns every year. For every one of the former, there are probably thousands of the latter.

Hey, I realize it's a personal choice. I've made mine, you make yours. Before I ride off into the sunset, let me add these tidbits:

Rich: you mention that with true freedom comes risk. That is true. One would also deduce that with true freedom comes a high level of personal responsibility. Unfortunately, pal, Americans are devoid of this. Sorry.

I'm sure you will handle your weapon responsibly, but a large number of those who also own weapons will not. THAT, my friend, is the "risk" that you, I and EVERYONE ELSE must live with (and one, by the way, that I, personally, would rather live without).

To others: Regarding Japan, I can tell you from research and personal experience, that the Japanese are as removed from their feudal roots as we are from our Puritan origins.

Any of you who think the modern Japanese pysche extends beyond the Occupation needs to read a history book or two.

Do you really see the Japanese idea of suicide as a problem? Psychologically, perhaps. Symbolically, however, it (and other "extreme" actions like sudden political resignations, shaving one's head [kids] after being severely punished, etc.) represents the highest level of acknowledgement of one's responsibility to oneself and one's community.

We Americans could use a (more) healthy dose of that!

Respectfully,

Gary


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 5:04 am 
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Joined: Tue May 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 5
Mr. Khoury,
Why not limit the practice of martial arts to only police and military? Uechi-Ryu is a deadly art, no? Martial artists (especially teachers) of all people should understand that weapons are merely tools that can be used for good or evil.(and so are organizations like the POLICE and MILITARY)
That is why a moral code is so important, and should be emphasized in our practice. We all know this, I know I am just "preaching to the choir". I think we should be emphasizing this moral code in society, just as we do in the dojo. In my experience this works. This is what makes the art truly powerfull, makes it whole, and what makes it worthwhile to study for a lifetime. We should strive to spread these values instead of eliminating effective tools for self preservation.
In the dojo the teacher plays a big role in positive and negative reinforcement of these values.(not allowing senior students to "prey on" or abuse juniors, etc.)
Obviously in society the will of the people as expressed through our law should also reinforce these values. We are not effectively enforcing the laws we have on the books now.
In the meantime, if people are being shot, or blown up, or beaten, or raped, or robbed, or whatever.... I would like to keep my options open. I would like to live, and I would like the right to fight for my own freedom if neccesary.


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 7:15 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 48
Location: Kranj, Slovenia
Dear Mr.Jr,

Now,
I would strogly recommend to forum moderator, that what you GENTLEman had to say
in above very first post of yours,

(maybe I am wrong
and there were some before
but I am just an ordinary human being,
with limited resources
and I might not seen it
amoung some many posts)

to be exposed as the POST of the DAY,
in regards to PROPER UNDERSTANDING of USE of DEADLY WEAPONS in
Martial Arts
and among general public.


In my deepest respect,
I bow to you GENTLEman,

Igor Prasnikar


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 9:12 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 100
Location: LA, CA, USA
"But as I said in another thread, if this is not viable, perhaps we should return to the old West. Everyone should carry guns on their hips and then we would not need to hypothesize about who's carrying and who is not."

How would this be better than concealed carry? Is this a well thought out alternative to concealed carry? If so, how would this be more effective? Isn't one of the likely reasons concealed carry laws seem to lower violent crime rates the fact that it keeps criminals guessing, and unsure about the vulnurability of their possible victims? Are you seriously advocating mandatory open carrying laws? Is this an intellegent well thought out suggestion, or some form of sarcasm which may reflect a lack of clear consideration of the issues with a minimum of emotional or ideological baggage?

"If you would like to discuss stats, however, to me this is the only statistic that truly
matters: The number of reported defenses by those who own guns vs. the number of
people killed by guns every year. For every one of the former, there are probably
thousands of the latter."

"Probably" seems to lack something in its quality as a useful statistic. Could you give us some more solid numbers? I prefer to make up my mind about important issues with a bit more basis in fact.

I have known exactly zero people personally who have been shot by criminals, by family memebers, or accidentally, but have know a couple who protected themselves by simply showing a potential attacker that they were armed. If I was to make up my mind based on hazy fantasy "statistics," purely anecdotal evidence, or related questionable sources I'd be a rabid advocate of mandatory concealed carry laws. As it is, though I have had some firearm training in the military and from a gun enthusiast friend I don't own a firearm.
I might or might not buy one someday, but I have formed no emotional opinion about them in a vaccuum of evidence and fact. I prefer hard data when making up my mind to more dubious "evidence."

Scaramouche


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
Good Morning All,
Cecil and Gary, I have found that there are about 3 issues in life that will arouse the ire of the average person. Arms, Abortion & Getting old (Democrats: "Those Republicans are trying to take away your Social Security, and Medicare/aid let's get them.") I'll bet you two have more in common than the rest of us. Looks like you have agreed to disagree for now.

Incidentally, the only other way you could ramp this thread up, for this much heat, would be to talk about abortion. Please do not!

Gary, at the start of this thread (5/2/99, 3:48) I could see you stepping on Van's toes and wondered why it took him (10:22 PM) so long to respond.

My feelings on the gun issue have changed back and forth over the years. I am kind of stuck at: If everyone (police and military included) is disarmed then it makes sense otherwise it won't work.

Realistically if the police can't even stop the drugs, which appear to be at the root of 95% of all crime then how can they stop the proliferation of guns. It seems as if, since they know all the drug dealers and there is so much money involved, they allow it to keep their jobs. They don't even put themselves in danger anymore. In Littleton a Teacher went in and saved a hundred kids while the SWAT teams, absolutely armed to the teeth and paid to serve and protect hid behind buses and trucks?

Technologically it is amazing that something as simple as a steel tube and lead ball propelled by gunpowder can reek as much havoc on us for how many hundred years without something being able to neutralize it or stop it. Sort of challenges our inventiveness: Here's a bullet proof vest. Hey, I've invented the teflon coated bullet, try again! Mike


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 1:16 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 5997
Location: Mount Dora, Florida
I agree with Mr. Hurney, Gun control is not a safe subject to discuss. Just a question of time before tempers will flare. I beleive most people will relate to both arguments. I know I do! So lets simply agree to disagree and lobby our congresspeople to respect our collective wishes.

I beleive, however, that Jr. made an interesting point by comparing the potential unarmed deadly force courses available to people with controversy surrounding guns. Surely there are individuals who must believe that what we practice fall into the same category as weapons. Then there are the pipe bombs, clubs, knives, pool cues, sticks, oars . . . that are readily available and with a little imagination, can be used as deadly weapons.

------------------
GEM


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Wed May 05, 1999 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 5
Ladies and gentlemen,

My post was intended to show ways in which our art and its tradition relate to the topic introduced by Mr. Khoury. This is a Uechi-ryu website, not a political issues website.
However, I believe that my training overflows(strongly influences) into every aspect of my life from "self defense reality" to political issues. For instance, I have always been a protector of the 2nd amendment having been brought up and trained with firearms since age six. My karate training has had the effect of stregthening that mental position. Everything relates to our practice, because we are practicing to be better people.
However, simply saying "My position on gun control is ....." does not show a link to Uechi-ryu, or martial arts. I think that anything is appropriate to discuss here(even abortion) as long as we are discussing it as it relates to the martial arts community. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 1999 12:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Gentlemen:

This was NEVER intended to be a post about gun control. This post was intended to be an open forum discussion about thinking of a social paradigm where the presence of firearms would not be necessary for one to feel safe.

But, please let me put this volatile issue to rest with this offering to the group: BANG!

Gary


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 1999 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 244
Location: Marblehead, MA USA
I once found some still pictures of one of my first Sanchins and I would bet if I could find them we would all agree it looks like an aboprtion and I should have been shot then and there.
Anyway,
Gary, how goes the training and when is your next Seminar in preparation for the Big Rumble.
Mike


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 Post subject: Different paradigm
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 1999 1:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 04, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 5
Gentlemen,
I did not mean to offend, just thought the conversation seemed "offtrack"(?) I was interested in others opinions of how this issue relates to thier training or thier defensive mindset. I did not want to beat a dead horse.
As far as the paradigm goes, I think I would enjoy feeling safe. Maybe it was the mention of police and military and other existing real life cultures and societies that influenced my thinking.
On the issue of capital punishment(oh no, another controversial issue) for poor performance of sanchin, I am against it. As I said before I would like to live.



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