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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:31 pm 
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I ran into this article...very informative.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:23 am 
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In what way Van? , i thought Uechi was pretty much a continuation of Kanbuns teaching?

Kihon kata and the kumites isnt that the okinawan standard?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:50 pm 
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Interesting the way the article explains 'bun' [breakdown] 'kai' [understand]...movements of the kata and study practical applications.

Also where it indicates that 12 forms of Yakusoku kumite were by Choki Motobu and that they were used as component parts of bunkai practice.

And that Patrick McCarthy is a strong advocate of two man sets...from the kata moves.

Always learning from all we read.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:29 pm 
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Its old news Van , unfortunately the main stream organisations fail to embrace it.

They cling to their model and insist nothing has changed.

It was McCarthys approach that led me to Uechi , Uechi being one of the most complete styles and untarnished by influence.

This approach will eventually lead to being squeezed out of the main stream as you discover the emperors wearing no clothes.

The insistance of block strike sport drills means few will ever see the real depth of kata


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:23 am 
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As my goof friend Art Rabesa is fond of saying
Quote:
it is what it is


So Uechi practitioners have this information to digest
Quote:
Kanei Uechi developed a set of pre-arranged sparring exercises for the pre-black colored belt ranks. These exercises are referred to as yakusoku kumite.

They involve two partners exchanging a formal sequence of blocks and strikes. There are five to eleven of these exercises, and each one involves three to six exchanges of single blocks and strikes.

The kumite exercises involve blocks and strikes that are, for the most part, also found in Uechi-Ryū kata. Thus, like kata no bunkai, these exercises help students become familiar with the application of Uechi-Ryū techniques.

Typically, the highest kyu ranks are expected to be able to move through these exercises with great strength and fluidity. Dan level students practice additional pre-arranged sparring exercises.

Applications of kata are also practiced in a pre-arranged format. These patterns are called kata no bunkai.

Kanshiwa Bunkai and Seisan Bunkai date to Kanei Uechi. Other bunkai for other katas, such as Kanshu and Seichin, are also often practiced but may vary in format more from dojo to dojo.


The very fact that Master Uechi developed this training method for a reason...is not something for me to condemn, unless those exercises begin to be 'sold' as street attacks reality in the original format. Sensei Mattson has modified them to become very useful in reality attacks.

I see this in a very simple light: beginning students are helped with this practice to become familiar with the base applications of the kata patterns...

As to how the continue and see the usefulness of the drills with relation to ingrained responses to street attacks, is entirely another individual matter.

As we advance in Uechi...we can always drop the practice after we meet the testing standard...and put the drills into storage until needed to help a new student along.

But then, we will have some who will not put up with the kumite/bunkai ...prearranged patterns as part of their Uechi training...and may decide to leave the system completely and move on to other stuff, like Krav Maga which is all the rage today.

I don't see any problems with that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:55 am 
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You miss the point Van , it isnt the drills its the lack of drills for anything at all related to Hapv

But its hard not to fixate on them when thats it.

The article as i read it was about historically the mechanics principles and techniques unutilised in kata , the block punch mindset

It is pretty sophist to insist those that progress and abandon such inane drilling have left/abandoned the system , in my experience they love the functional art and are more accurately ostracised.

If the trend is to abandon uechi for more holistic training , one must question the training not the style.

They are better educated perhaps as per the article and see a bigger picture.

Real leadership is being inclusive of those you disagree with , such examples show with many of the great masters and traditions.

Its not really productive to fall back on the kumites every discussion , the are really irrelevant , all Im pointing at is the need to have a broader view of all aspects of combat if you are to truly train self protection and to honestly even seriously begin to train kata , rather than just kihon kata(as only a dance) and kumite.

When kata is reflected only as punch block sequences and , your kumites do not instead reflect hapv from the kata well kata is truly being lost.

You are very right , it is what it is.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:42 pm 
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Quote:
You miss the point Van , it isnt the drills its the lack of drills for anything at all related to Hapv


I don’t think so Marcus,what you write has been the theme of my forum for close to twenty years as you well know.

But maybe I did not make myself clear… to begin with let’s forget about the article you read as such and concentrate on the style of Uechi Ryu.

First when you talk about the lack of drills for anything related to Hapv…I disagree because the drills for Hapv in Uechi are found in the kanchiwa bunkai and seisan bunkai for whatever they are worth, and so ‘the style is what it is’_

if any student disagrees with that style ‘standard’ …then he is totally free of pursuing cross training in more modern tactical aspects of dealing with today’s violence in the streets…something that so many have done and continue doing, such as the seminars of Rory Miller or BJJ/Krav/whatever...with the blessings of most of the senior seniors.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:52 pm 
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Quote:
If the trend is to abandon uechi for more holistic training , one must question the training not the style.
They are better educated perhaps as per the article and see a bigger picture.
Real leadership is being inclusive of those you disagree with , such examples show with many of the great masters and traditions.


I agree, and looking for the bigger picture does not necessarily mean abandoning Uechi...it means supplementing the Uechi training with something else, such as the tactical concepts of Rory Miller/BJJ/scenario training etc.

When you write about questioning the training and not the style...we must be careful not to infer that the way Master Uechi and other Okinawan masters taught/teach Uechi classes...might be lacking in vision.

I say this because I don't want this to be perceived the wrong way on this forum.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:54 pm 
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Far it be from me or others to pass judgement on the old masters’ intent in having developed the style of Uechi to what it is today, and how it is taught today in classes held in Okinawa or elsewhere.... Maybe it is just us that do not understand.

Again, the various bunkai [kanshiwa/Seisan/Sanseiryu] address the most basic common acts of attacks…and the Okinawan masters are on record urging Uechi students to do their home work to improve the odds.


Did you get to practice any of those two bunkais? If you did, then I would like to know your opinions of them. And keep in mind that the present day seisan bunkai is unchanged from the Kanbun original.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:56 pm 
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And there is something else for any student of Uechi to keep in mind as to any bunkai applications from the kata:

1. The way they are taught by the Okinawan masters is that they provide only a basic defensive roadmap…
2. and it is expected of a student to further break down and practice his understanding of the basic concepts of those bunkai drills.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2016 4:03 pm 
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I want to get the hell away from this business of being ostracized you bring up over and over, because I really don’t give a damn about such an organization that did that to you. The only thing I know is that I would not do that to you in any organization I would ever belong to.

To me, the K drills remind me of when I was a child learning how to ride a bicycle safely, and later in life when I went to school to learn to ride a Harley.

It is up to me to decide whether to continue in such practice or just file them away after having learned them, also for the reason that I would need to teach them to new students of the Uechi style.

We don't want a student who studies with us to feel like out of place if he ever visits another dojo or Okinawa.

We need a totality of perspective for us and our students.

And we need not fear the wrong 'ingraining' of defensive concepts from the drills if we don't practice them incessantly over and over v. well executed kata bunkai.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:11 pm 
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Seen them Van , and you know my feelings on them , dont see many hapv , no real resistance

The seized from behind groin strike stands out , about the only point were something is actually disrupting the defender.

Your right it is what it is

No interest in discussing kumites , just what a holistic more rounded approach would look like, why folks head for krav maga as per your words , what a modern educated student sees as lacking.

And yes it is about dangerous ingraining.

It is as you say

It is what it is

Sorry if its uncomfortable happy to moderate my input


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 4:47 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=11&t=22627


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:19 am 
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Never uncomfortable my friend, I enjoy the arguments _as I have always on this forum for the last 20 years. Ordinarily I agree with all that you say, but not on this subject...sorry about that.
Quote:
Seen them Van , and you know my feelings on them , dont see many hapv , no real resistance


What I am trying to get across here is the fact that the standard ways of Okinawa in teaching Uechi, is to give a student all the rote components of the style and to familiarize the student with the basic applications of the Uechi tool box via prearranged drills, Bunkai, and free fighting.

Then you are told that it is your responsibility to hone those components through your own personal efforts, such as coming up on your own with personal ways to apply kata concepts in further breaking down your understanding of Uechi via applications of your own creation against the more habitual acts of violence at whatever intensity you feel you need.

I am not sure this is coming across very clear.

And this method also needs to be augmented with a more tactical study of tool box applications against the likely violence one may encounter.

And this is done in many different ways by many Uechi practitioners, who need not dump the tool box of Uechi.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2016 5:34 am 
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Quote:
No interest in discussing kumites , just what a holistic more rounded approach would look like, why folks head for krav maga as per your words , what a modern educated student sees as lacking.

And yes it is about dangerous ingraining.


Neither do I...we have beaten that dead horse to death, time and again over the years.

But the reality of it is that if a student of Uechi, today, in whatever organization, is interested in progressing thru the Dan ranks and to become a Uechi teacher someday...he must at least know them...and then he can put them aside in a locked cabinet if he so wishes.

On the other hand, if a student wants to practice Uechi and has no interest in going up the rank ladder, then he should not be compelled to practice the kumites or whatever else he doesn't care for. People should be free to pursue Uechi training any way, shape, or form they wish, and that's fine, as long as they don't also expect to be promoted to high levels of rank in an organization with an established standard.

This should be obvious as Fair play, I would think.

And I will repeat what I have written here countless times_ that if a student learns the kumites that Master Uechi devised to help him familiarize himself with the system's tools...

AND THEN puts them aside, instead of incessant practice, THEN there will be no dangerous ingraining.

Operant conditioning requires continuous practice of any skill. Reason why, as Laird wrote, people who go to different kinds of seminars and learn a bunch of things they will not bring to their practice on the floor day in and day out...will quickly forget and none of that stuff will ever ingrain.

Rory was very clear on this point.

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