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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 1999 3:22 am 
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Points to ponder :

1] What is the difference between cross training with fearsome martial arts weapons [ Kobudo] and cross training with firearms ?

2] What was the intent of learning to use simple implements as martial arts weapons ?


3] Why would a karate -ka find it necessary to develop skills with martial arts weapons along with empty hands skills ?


4] What is the difference between getting killed by a gun or by a knife , tonfa , bo , sai etc. Which way would you prefer to die ?


5 ] If handguns had been available to Okinawans would they have bypassed them in favor of kobudo weapons ?


6] When the three thugs invaded my cousin's home and shot dead their nine year old daughter barricading the front door while the father was frantically looking for a non existent weapon in the house ___ what would you have fought the assailants off with ? What if instead of a gun, they had been carrying machetes and baseball bats ? How would you envision defending yourself, and with what ?

7] What if by magic all guns disappeared overnight ! Do you think crime and killing would stop overnight as well ?

8] You as a " tough karate man " would you really feel comfortable defending yourself against one or more assailants with knives and or tire irons /baseball bats ?

9] As an aside , assuming you can break baseball bats with your shins , would you feel comfortable if some punk swung at your shins with a bat in a street fight ?

10] Say you are antigun , you hate guns ! We go out to dinner some night with our wives downtown ! On the way back to our parked car we come under siege by four drunken punks with knives and bats and they tell you they are going to rape your wife first while you watch , then they will want oral sex from you while they make your wife watch after raping her ! You know I have a concealed weapon [ handgun] ; would you ask me / expect me to pull it to try and save your wife and you from a grisly fate or to keep it in my pocket ?



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Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 05-12-99).]

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 05-12-99).]

[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 05-12-99).]


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 1999 10:04 am 
7) A week after the shooting in Littleton, some guy drove his car through a bunch of todlers at an elementary school, killing two, I believe, and injuring others. Think it was in California, but it only made the news once, therefore I forgot the details. With the story making the news only one day and NOT pumped-up showing the same scenes over and over, it is impossible to generate emotions against car drivers.

However the Littleton incident drew polarization, and a whole raft of other emotions against gun owners, only because of the news-media coverage bombardment.
<hr>
I knew a young man once who pointed a handgun at someone at point-blank range and was prepared to pull the trigger in self-defense if it came to that. I swear that guns, in the hands of trained law-abiding citizens, save more lives than they take.
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Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 05-12-99).]


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 1999 4:46 am 
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What's funny about my post is that , as expected, it does not draw many takers ! The anti-gunners / hoplophobes , in particular , are afraid to engage as they fear getting their proverbial t** caught in the ringer !

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Van Canna


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 1999 5:19 am 
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I enjoy the works of Jeff Cooper , the gunner's guru !

If there is anybody out there on mindset experiences of real life , that's Mr. Cooper !

He talks about the existence in some of us of the killer instinct neither to be extolled nor condemned ! Funny thing : he believes that those people without the killer instinct lead somewhat diminished lives !

You think you are a tough karate - ka ; tournament fighter , big bad Mother F*** ; let's see how well you would do against a cape buffalo[Syncerus caffer] in Africa !
Here is one bull with a real attitude [ killer instinct ] which might cultivate out of mindset :

" You wound a buffalo and he turns into 1500 pounds of hate . He can run faster than you , smell what you had for dinner two nights ago , turn on a coin , hide behind a bunch of leaves , and when this big black brute boils out of the bush his little eyes are focused only on you . Nothing will turn him . As he charges , he chews out bullets and spits them out . Only death will stop him , his or yours , or both ." [ by Jep Jonas in Magnum ]

It is said that for a big game hunter he must gather ten bulls before he can be sure of drama and resolve !


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 1999 7:26 am 
I grew up with many guns in the house, my dad was a hunter. I was raised to have a proper respect for them. I have carried a gun as an armed guard. My family and my wife's family have been touched by the accidental use of firearms. A great uncle, a six year old child lost. So I find myself torn on this issue. My martial side has no questions. As a family man with kids around I am concerned that I cannot instruct every visiting child as to the proper respect for weapons. I am torn, and so I have not ventured forth any opinion previously. Canada is still somewhat different from the gun culture in the USA, although this is changing very rapidly. The use of guns is not as prevalent, but as I say this is changing rapidly. I must balance the chance of the need for a gun in my home here in Edmonton with the chance of an accident. If I lived elsewhere the decision would be very different. When I needed one on the job I carried one.

Van Sensei asked some hard hitting questions. He should not be ignored just because they make us uncomfortable.

So here goes:

1] What is the difference between cross training with fearsome martial arts weapons [Kobudo] and cross training with firearms?

Answer: No difference in principle, although many of the kobudo weapons may be of only a historical value, guns are in the here and now.

2] What was the intent of learning to use simple implements as martial arts weapons ?

Answer: To move up the force continuum. (Everyone should understand building a bigger bomb.)

3] Why would a karate -ka find it necessary to develop skills with martial arts weapons along with empty hands skills ?

Answer: Again to move up the continuum, and it has always been said that to work with a weapon improves your empty hand.

4] What is the difference between getting killed by a gun or by a knife , tonfa , bo , sai etc. Which way would you prefer to die?

Answer: Dead is dead.

5 ] If handguns had been available to Okinawans would they have bypassed them in favor of kobudo weapons ?

Answer: Interesting question. The obvious answer is no. The interesting part is the "culture" made the Samurai resistant to adding guns -- although they eventually did. (Big sword vs. no gun or gun -- there is a decision to make here?)

6] When the three thugs invaded my cousin's home and shot dead their nine year old daughter barricading the front door while the father was frantically looking for a non existent weapon in the house ___ what would you have fought the assailants off with? What if instead of a gun, they had been carrying machetes and baseball bats ? How would you envision defending yourself, and with what ?

Answer: Sadly, probably just with my life.

7] What if by magic all guns disappeared overnight ! Do you think crime and killing would stop overnight as well ?

Answer: No. Would some accidentally deaths be avoided? Would some other murders occur? Ah, the dilemma.

8] You as a " tough karate man " would you really feel comfortable defending yourself against one or more assailants with
knives and or tire irons /baseball bats?

Answer: No.

9] As an aside , assuming you can break baseball bats with your shins , would you feel comfortable if some punk swung at your shins with a bat in a street fight ?

Answer: No.

10] Say you are antigun , you hate guns ! We go out to dinner some night with our wives downtown ! On the way back to our parked car we come under siege by four drunken punks with knives and bats and they tell you they are going to rape your wife first while you watch , then they will want oral sex from you while they make your wife watch after raping her ! You know I have a concealed weapon [ handgun] ; would you ask me / expect me to pull it to try and save your wife and you from a grisly fate or to keep it in my pocket?

Answer: Yes, please.

Strong straight forward questions.

Rick


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 1999 11:53 am 
Dear Van,

I answered only one question (#7 prev. reposte) before, one that pertains to everyone on a large scale TODAY. I’ll answer just one or two more.

1] What is the difference between cross training with fearsome martial arts weapons [ Kobudo] and cross training with firearms ?

Often training with a weapon is an extension of yourself. You lengthen your reach; you become one with the weapon. You become the bullet; the far end of the stick (or knife) becomes your knuckles. You feel yourself at the very tip of the weapon – it is you.

2] What was the intent of learning to use simple implements as martial arts weapons ?

Pitchforks are great! To the farmer sometimes these tools were all they had in with which to defend himself. But tell that to a dead farmer in the Old West or in today’s South Africa.

3] Why would a karate -ka find it necessary to develop skills with martial arts weapons along with empty hands skills ?

Just one of many examples, and one I like to repeat: If you train with bastons [I'm thinking Siniwali with a partner], and the bastons have shiny silver tape wrapped around the far end, your eyes get very fast after a while. Incoming kicks and punches become easier to see and detect – and intercept.

That’s 4 out of ten so far. I’ll leave the rest.

------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]

[This message has been edited by Allen M. (edited 05-13-99).]


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 1999 6:19 pm 
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Dear Rick ,

Thank you for the input ! Very refreshing !

You said "My family and my wife's family have been touched by
the accidental use of firearms."

Very sorry to hear and my heart goes out to you ! This is why guns are such an emotional subject ! It depends on where you find the trigger ! [ pun intended] !
After a family tragedy , most gun enthusiasts start to hate guns and get rid of them !On the flip side , if a gun saved a victim from a horrible crime in progress , the gun will be worshipped and treated as a friend !

Rick , the following is not meant to be disrespectful to you or your family for the past tragedies , so please bear with me !

As I have written before , most gun owners are as stupid as most martial artists , in that they neglect sensible education and training ! Lt. Strong says that there is no prerequisite of knowledge , efficiency and pride attached to gun ownership ; most gun owners have not experienced knowledge and respect for a gun ; they operate solely out of fear motivation __ the only interest is __ how do I load it ?

The truth is most people with guns today are ineffective and dangerous and unsafe due to the lack of common sense specialized training ! Same can be said of most martial artists ! I have investigated dozens of accidental discharges with firearms as well as ' accidental' beatings taken by martial arts 'experts' and the common denominator is always sheer stupidity !

Lt. Strong adds that very few gun owners know anything about using guns at critical distances and under deadly conditions ! [ In my view this also applies to most martial artists with their karate ]

If you want to be armed , you must be well trained in the use of the gun , you must be safe and you must be educated as to the consequences !

You are responsible for that gun 24 hours a day , in and out the house ! If it is not under your control , unload the thing and lock it up ! Basic common sense ; if you are a drunk , use drugs and beat your wife , get rid of the guns ! If you are mentally a moron or have an unstable family member in the household ; lose the guns ! If you are a cheap skate or dead beat and won't spend the money for top class training such as lethal force institute ; lose the guns !

As to youngsters problems : those who grow up around guns and are taught safety and respect [ not a toy] cause no problems ; on the other hand the T. V. educated juveniles with morons and cretins as parents cause all the problems ! Careless , lazy adults worried about their pizza and beer and cigarettes on their fat red neck asses and bellies who leave loaded unlocked firearms where kids can easily get access to them ought to be shot with their own guns ! Education and responsible parenting are the keys ! But look at some families today ; look at the way some of them live …makes you want to puke !

Then Lt. Strong asks : " CAN YOU KILL A MAN" ? another way to put it : do you have the killer instinct ? Hear this :

" You will not be a safe distance away . You 'll be close , real close, count on about five feet , but maybe only inches .The fight will be one on one , possibly to the death for one or both of you . To stop him , you 'll probably have to shoot him more than once because he will be close enough to use his weapons on you even as you are shooting him . Don't expect him to turn and run after one shot , whether you hit him or not .Don't expect a clean one hit stop . Expect screaming and everything to be blood soaked , including you , your own blood and likely his too . Even if he is badly wounded , expect him to get to you or perhaps a family member , maybe with his weapon still in his hands. Count on this , you can be completely familiar with guns and still find criminal assault a complete shock [ same for a budo man ] . Violent attacks are never clean and seldom go down or end the way you hope or expect . They are unforgettable . They will change your life forever " { Lt. Strong } __ [ Sound familiar ?]

Similarly I know quite a few prior 'strutting' martial artists who have taken such beatings in real fights that they have buried their gis and black belt and never stepped into their dojo again !

------------------
Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 05-13-99).]


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 1999 2:35 am 
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Great post sensei. Personally, the more I train with the Glock the more I respect its power. The .45 ACP jhp is nasty. Anyone who has any knowledge of the devestaing ability of one of these and points it at you must be dealt with immediately. I'm very comfortable with it now, and my wife stated just today that she wants to go back to the range for more practice. For me it is cross training. For Linda the Glock is pure self defense.

Above you commented 'unload the thing and lock it up'. We do keep it (and the Ti) in a pushbutton lock box when at home but they are loaded and ready to go. Actually, i'm contemplating a second lock box in a different location, so we have more than one avenue to reach one of them. What do you think?

Rich


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 1999 3:34 am 
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Rich ,

< Actually, I'm contemplating a second lock
box in a different location, so we have more than one avenue to
reach one of them. What do you think? >

Comments : good strategy ! Never leave any gun laying around ; use trigger locks on the rest of the guns you own , better yet , buy a gun safe and lock them up !

< For Linda the
Glock is pure self defense.>

Comments : your wife I admire ! Must be quite a woman ! She is confident , doesn't get swayed by the antigun talk and she is developing a hell of a mindset , much more so than her female martial artist counterparts ! Willing to bet she has a natural killer instinct !


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Van Canna


[This message has been edited by Van Canna (edited 05-13-99).]


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 1999 6:56 am 
Van Sensei:

I would never consider that any post of yours was intended with anything but respect.

Your comments are excellent. Reviewing how tragedies happen can help prevent others. Both these tragedies occurred a number of years ago when Canadian lock up laws were not in place. (Silly that common sense needs to be made a law? But then I have never found common sense to be all that common.)

In my great uncle's case they always kept the riffles unloaded in a locked gun case. A neighbour borrowed one of the riffles from one of the family. The neighbour was well know (small farming community) so he returned it to the gun case. My great uncle never knew the riffle had been lent out. When he was removing the riffle from the case the trigger caught and the gun went off shooting him in the head. The neighbour had returned it to the gun case loaded. Yes, stupidity played a large role.

When a cousin of my wife's was about six or seven she went to play at a friend's house. The neighbour (six) and she found the father's gun in the night stand. When my wife's cousin was playing with it the gun discharged and killed her young friend. A loaded gun in a night stand where kids could play with it -- STUPIDITY PLUS! My wife's cousin is now in her forties and still has not recovered.

Everyone's experiences will colour how they feel, this is normal for all things. As I said, my personal views are torn, because the martial value of a gun is unquestionable. Canada's carry laws are very different from many state's, so carrying is not really an option.

Rick


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 1999 6:56 pm 
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Ok, I'll bite. (but not so hard that it hurts!) As someone who likes to play with kobudo - I'll venture a few opinions here. But as I am no expert - and I don't have a kobudo "style" if you will - please note that these comments are purely conjecture.

1. Difference between cross-training with "traditional" weapons vs. a gun

Guns = purely self defense. While skill enters in - to my mind gun training involves more tactics and mindset - as has been mentioned - a grandmother can blow away an intruder with proper mindset, a rifle, and little training. Not that training isn't necessary - it is - but it is not the same to me as the type of training kobudo practice gives me. Kobudo practice is for me an exercise in body mechanics - an extension of my empty hand skills - practice in balance and power and thrust. Not for self-defense. Guns however do not involve the same emphasis. Other than stance and positioning - the body mechanics and resultant body development are two totally different things.

2. What was the intent of learning to use simple implements in martial arts

Not to defend against a gun - certainly. But instead - perhaps to practice the skills of integrating "environment" weapons. If one is to believe the legends involving the history of some of the traditional kobudo weapons (carrying buckets - grinding stone handles - horse bits - etc.) then these are implements that would have been readily available at the time - and practice with them could serve to develop the mindset to use what is available - modern day versions include keys, hairpins - shoes (high heeled ones are best!) and other readily available objects. Even a rolled up dollar bill can help to gouge out an eyeball if necessary. The point is - to use what is available.

3. Why develop weapons skills along with empty hand

For me, two reasons. 1) As an extension of the study of body mechanics and power as I mentioned above. 2) To get beyond the belief that empty hand skills are all that one needs to adequately defend themselves. As for me - if faced with a knife attack - and there is something I can grab to put between me and the knife, I'll do that before I try any fancy knife disarm technique I saw on the Llap-Goch Guaranteed Self-Defense and Knife Disarms techniques video.

4. Difference in getting killed by gun, knife, or traditional weapon

Man, that is a weird one! Dead is dead! My preference? None! Death by old age in my sleep works for me! But if I was forced to choose I couldn't honestly say! How about boiled in oil like the samurai did? Nah - too slow. I save that one for MY enemies. I guess they'll just have to catch me first. I don't think someone intent on killing me is going to really wait for me to decide upon my preferred method of demise.

5. Would Okinawans have favored guns over the traditional weapons if they were available

For self-defense? Absolutely! Isn't the whole point to stay alive? I don't believe that the stories of honorable death by honorable weapons hold any water when life and limb and loved ones are on the line!

6. The sad story of your cousin's family - what would I have done

I can't say - as I wasn't there. Impossible to predict unless under the same stresses and fears and emotions. I like to think that if my family was threatened - and I could not access any of my guns - then I would be using any environment weapon in sight: chairs, umbrellas, vases, etc. Anything that I could throw or hit with - and coming in close contact would involve nails and teeth and whatever else necessary. If they had machetes? I would hope I could grab a pillow off the sofa or something - even a throw rug off the floor. But again, I would have no way of knowing unless I was in the situation. And I pray that I never am!

7. What if all guns vanished overnight - would the killing stop

I don't believe it would. Man's inhumanity to man is well documented long before the invention of firearms. If all guns disappeared - it would probably get a lot worse.

8. As a tough "karate man" would I feel comfortable defending myself against baseball bats, tire irons etc.

Well, again this is a rough one for me - being that I am not a tough karate "man" (HA!) (Even if I try to be!) (HA! again!) But seriously - one one occasion I was involved in a fray involving an axe handle. No time to think - no karate moves would have worked in this situation - even the famous kanshiwa bankai practice move - forgetaboutit. The only thing I did was move instinctually - trying to get inside the range of the weapon and maneuver around to jump on the guys back and try to choke him. He couldn't hit me with the axe handle from that angle. He did get in a few elbows though (ouch!) so - did I feel comfortable? Hell no! Does my karate make me feel more confident against something like this? Hell no again, EXCEPT that maybe - somewhere - in the dark recesses of my mind - all that practice rushing the attacks that we do in the dojo would help me to do the same again - and get inside the attack. I don't know - and will not know unless the situation presents itself. And again, I pray it doesn't. But part of my mindset training forces me to confront the thought and run through worse-case scenarios in my mind. Maybe if I can visualize the worst then in an actual situation the play won't be as bad as I can imagine it.

9. Feeling comfortable with a punk swinging a baseball bat at my shins

Hell no again! My luck it would be an aluminum bat anyway. Haven't had much success breaking those as of yet. Now Tony's got some mean shin blocks - but if some punk was swinging a bat at me I don't believe I would try and "tough it out!" More like, jump, move, or run like hell. Barring that - I'd have to turn into a cape buffalo I guess.

10. Would I want you to intervene in a situation knowing that you carry

Again, I have to play with the gender here - I wouldn't exactly have to worry about my wife being violated - but as for me - damn right - if you were packing and that kind of situation developed - I would absolutely want you to pull it and use it! But I'm not anti-gun - and your question poses it with that supposition - so I would also have to say that even if I was I would still want you to intervene with deadly force. I do not have any religious beliefs that would preclude that. I have met someone who does however - and I would like to know how he would respond to this question. If I get a chance, I'll ask him.

So - there's my 10 cents. Did I get my proverbial t** caught in the ringer?

Peace,
Lori

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited 05-14-99).]


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 1999 10:42 pm 
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Lori chan ,

Well , my oh my __ a heart of darkness __ This one is for you : " She walked with measured steps , draped in striped and fringed cloths , treading the earth proudly , with a slight jingle and a flash of barbarous ornaments . She carried her head high ; her hair was done in the shape of a helmet ; she had brass leggings to her knee , brass wire gauntlets at the elbow , a crimson spot on her tawny cheek , innumerable necklaces of glass beads on her neck , bizarre things , charms, gifts of witch men that hung about her , glittered and trembled at every step . She must have had the value of several elephant tusks upon her . She was savage and superb , wild eyed and magnificent ; there was something ominous and stately in her deliberate progress . And in the hush that had fallen so suddenly upon the whole sorrowful land , the immense wilderness, the colossal body of the fecund and mysterious life seemed to look at her , pensive , as though it had been looking at the image of its own tenebrous and passionate soul . She came abreast , stood still , her face had a tragic and fierce aspect of wild sorrow and of dumb pain mingled with the fear of some struggling , half shaped resolve ; like the wilderness itself , with an air of brooding over an inscrutable purpose ! Suddenly she opened her bared arms and threw them up rigid above her head , as though in an uncontrollable desire to touch the sky " { Joseph Conrad }

I guess that is what happens to our Uechi women who practice power kata !

Morituri te salutant



------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: GUNS V. KOBUDO
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 9:04 pm 
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Location: Boca Raton, FL
While practicing at the indoor range this morning, a 30 something guy comes in with his obviously new girlfriend and a 357 Magnum. I am practicing weak side and strong side, firing from the hip and arm extended. The target is 5 to 8 yards out.

Studly proceeds to move his target to the end of the range (25-30 yards) and commences the girlfriend's lesson. Bickering and frustration soon set in as she can't hit anything and boyfriend is all over her case.

After 15 minutes of this, girlfriend requests the target to be brought closer, like the guy next to them (me). Boyfriend informs her that I am "cheating" and must be new to guns or I too would be hanging my target out at the "manly" range. He then proceeds to shoot up the backstop also.

I finish up and leave.

Lt. Strong adds that very few gun owners know anything about using guns at critical distances and under deadly conditions ! [ In my view this also applies to most martial artists with their karate ]

Hmmmm....


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