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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Fri May 14, 1999 8:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 148
Location: Boca Raton, FL
"you were outside blah blah.," which basically confesses that he knew it was my stuff, I had not left, and it really does not justify throwing it on the floor. Now I am mad and he is standing.

Seems to me that Anon was reacting to a perceived verbal and physical threat and responded appropriately by cranking it up one notch in order to take control of the situation.

Moe Mensale


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 2:01 am 
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Mike -san ,

Thank you ! Good post ! /But some people might argue that the true apples and oranges are ego vs. self respect …Entirely different animals !

Bearing in mind that all my examples here are real life occurrences which I have investigated at one time or another and which have taken some bizarre turns of events physical , financial legal and psychological ; lets take this to the next level for further study !

Suppose you are riding down the elevator in a multilevel downtown parking garage , your wife is wearing a diaphanous dress and showing lots of cleavage on the way to the theater to watch the play Les Miserables !

Two punks are now riding down with you [ they got in from the next floor below ] ; one of them squeezes/tweaks your wife's nipples ; she recoils in horror and screams ; You bravely say " Hey wait a minute " And the other guy spits in your face while you stand there defusing the situation ! Then they glare at you and say " what are you going to do about it you F*** Fag " ?

Now do you think that changes the picture ? You will be surprised at the ramifications ? Any thoughts on "reverse mindset" ?

Thanks for your input !



------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 4:57 am 
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In these situations , we can use as a guide , and only a guide , the teachings of lethal force trainers !

So do you come on hard and mean or meek and mild ? Aggressive or submissive ? Is it a " maybe" danger situation or a "definite" ! How far will you allow the situation to push you before you act with a physical response ! How tactically sound is your response going to be ! What is the caliber of the opponent , or have you decided it matters not, even if he is a wrestler/hells angels type ! Think again !!
Most of you are not used to stand up aggression and an overpowering verbal assault will freeze you like a deer in headlights !


Envision a street fight and see yourself being shoved around ,slapped around , kicked , stomped , stabbed and or shot to pieces !

Then are you naturally aggressive or submissive ! Some people will not run or hide no matter what the consequences ! Sometimes a show of aggression is necessary based on perceptions , that is why Monday morning quarterbacking is useless !

Mas Ayoob , police veteran , tells that submissive behavior is very tricky ! In the animal world baboons bend over and show their rump when they are intimidated by a fiercer member of their species ! Humans are different , at times , submission equals invitation to escalate harassment !

" often the best approach is to be non committal , no snarling rage , no aggressive body movements .
, but not an obvious attitude of surrender , speak coolly and calmly if you speak at all " { Mas] ___ sounds so easy right ?? Yeah right !

The most difficult thing to do is to save face ; that is what triggers all the fights !

Then when you think you have got all the rules down , you will find out that in a street confrontations there are no clear cut rules !


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Van Canna


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 5:18 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 15, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 159
Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
Miss a day, miss a lot...
Van, you said and asked,
"Sure there was no threat of violence initially ! But let me ask you this ! Is there a threat of violence if a punk in a calm manner walks up to your wife/girl friend on your arm and squeezes her nipples through the blouse she is wearing and says smilingly " where have you been all my life baby ?"

Now what are you going to do ?? "

My answer is, Yes and in fact an act of violence has already taken place! What am I going to do? I am going to push him away and confront him and try and extracate us without additional violence. But if that's not enough, then he'd better make sure I am incapacitated or dead. I will defend my wife and family to the death if necessary. That is a decission that I made decades ago.


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 5:34 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Fighting is not always about "teaching someone else a lesson". Sometimes fighting is about teaching something to yourself.

One often hears, "Hey, even if you beat the guy's ass, he's STIIL not going to see your side of things when you're through".

You know what? Good. I still get the satisfaction of stepping on a cockroach!

Keep training!

Gary

BTW: I would have done EXACTLY what George-sensei explained in the coffee shop. There is enough violence in the world. I do not need to contribute to it over a stupid jacket.

IF idiot-boy had stood, however, or put his hands on me, all bets are off. Period.

This is my personal decision. I made it years ago. It doesn't have to be OK with you, the courts or anyone else.

I'll sit in a cell if I have to, but I'll do it in confidence knowing that I stood up for my own personal values. As Van-sensei says, it's better to die standing up for what you believe in than to live in self-hatred, humiliation and cowardice.

G

------------------
Gary J. Khoury
http://www.uechi-ryu.com/khoury


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 5:38 am 
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Location: Valrico, Florida, USA
The next level
"Suppose you are riding down the elevator in a multilevel downtown parking garage....
Two punks are now riding down with you...
one of them squeezes/tweaks your wife's nipples ; she recoils in horror and screams ; You bravely say " Hey wait a minute " And the other guy spits in your face while you stand there defusing the situation ! Then they glare at you and say " what are you going to do about it you F*** Fag " ?

Now do you think that changes the picture ? You will be surprised at the ramifications ? Any thoughts on "reverse mindset" ?

Van,
I'll stay with my previous statement.
I am going to push him/them away and confront him/them and try and extracate us without additional violence. (I'm a lowly white belt and as Dirty Harry said - A man's gotta know his limitations) But if that's not enough, then he'd better make sure I am incapacitated or dead.
...btw-did I mention I have a memory for certain things...Star Trek has some interesting one-liners...There is an old Klingon proverb that says that revenge is a dish best served cold.


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 1:34 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 27, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 317
Sensei,
the examples you cite are quite different from the coffee shop scenario, and most of us would see the need to fight clearly implied in your cases. The famous Alcoholics Anonymous Serenity Prayer urges us to seek "the wisdom to know the difference". While I am not a particularly tough guy, I am also not a total "Lotus Eater"... there are situations in which one must fight. Fight to disarm in some, fight to the death in the extreme situation. The coffee shop scenario was not in that category.


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sat May 15, 1999 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 84
Location: Albuquerque NM USA
Herr Canna,

Danke fur deine compliment! Glad you enjoy. Und, yah, die scenario mit zee zwie punkerz in einnen elevator ist a bit shtickie. But, I must zay dat I am vun uff zee most fortunate men in dat mine wife ist a true fighter. Just a few veeks ago I am at stop light mit four college boys in jeep next door. Vun trows hiz cigarette on zee ground und I comment, "Da place duzn't come mit maid service, you know." He smart mouth und zay, "Shut up or I kick your ass." My wife lean over from zee passenger seat und sneer back, "OOOOooooo, what a Big MMMannnnnn!!!" Dey not say nutting else. Hah! She only 5'2" and over 200 pds. Gut German girl!!! Very strong!! (very beautiful too)!!

Zo, vee set zee stage for elevator. If ever punker get close enough in da furz place to touch her, he be throat punched so fast und groin striked same time mit knee. She haf very nice knees!! Strong German knees!! I especially fond of close-quarters. I imagine vee be polite and ask second boy if he vant to join his frend on floor. Vee probably help him off elevator at bottom if needed. My vife wuz attacked several yerz ago vile out valking vun Sunday morning. Poor fellow...I not give details less his family recognize. Suffice to say he not bother anyone no more.

Your truly...very much enjoy your forum.

Das Hermanator und Squidgemeistress...Michelle


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 1999 1:30 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 405
Location: Tewksbury, MA USA
Herr Doktor:

Chu vil answer Trruussfully?

Chu ah happy having chur vife fight chur fights for chu, Ja?

Franz advizez: Check in chur shorts, pal! Somsing missing dhere, Ja?

PS:

Paul Giella: I'm behind you 100% Good post.

GK


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 1999 4:12 am 
What WAS in that sagebrush, Mike?

------------------
Allen - [email]uechi@ici.net">uechi@ici.net</A> - <A HREF="http://www.uechi-ryu.org[/email]


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 1999 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 84
Location: Albuquerque NM USA
Herr Khoury und Giella,

Vell, I am glat you two boyz behinte each udder!! *Fights* are sumpzing zat eight-year-olds engage in!!! Fortunately, my vife not need to vait for me to make John Wayne noises like "I'll take over from here, little lady." She boddered by sumbotty, she able to take care uf it herzelf! Jus like you or me! Vun uf great advantage of karrottie ist avareness uf zoft parts uf body. Not need strength or deep voice. Und bezides, I not alvayz there to protect her. Vut den? (as Grandpa zay to Peter ven asking vut he do ven da vulf show up)?

Dis ist almoz da tventy-virst zenjury!! Vimmen dus der own zing, now!! Chivalry nice concept, but vaste valuable time in zerious confrontation. Better she no vut to do, und do it!! Vee vurk togezer!! Get much more done!! Don chu tink?

Now I curiouz vut Mz. Loftus und Mz. Olsen tink. I call dee girlz und zee vut zay say. MZ. LOOFFFTTTUSSS!! MZ. OOOLLLSSEENNN!! Vee neet und zecond opinion, please? (Heh, heh, heh!! Dis ztarting to get güt).

Der Herrmannator

P.S. Herr Khoury, haf you zeen Dr. White's query "Best Practices in Dojo Marketing" on der Bidnez/Mktng forum? Ve'd be verrrry in-ter-ested in your experiences mit promoting your tournaments. Plez accept invitation to visit.

[This message has been edited by MFH (edited 05-16-99).]

[This message has been edited by MFH (edited 05-16-99).]


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 1999 3:21 am 
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Hi Mike [ Herman] ,

I am enjoying your posts but you are giving mixed signals and I think you should clarify the issues for the comfort of my readers :

1] You said < I ain't got no self esteem an' need to prove myself,
especially as a MAN (WITH KILLER INSTINCT). I mean, Judge,
would you like, want me to go around for the rest of my life
feeling like that? I ask ya? Huh? Woodja?">

Your reference to killer instinct is an offshoot of my previous post ! Would you clarify your understanding of how an adversary with a natural killer instinct may affect the outcome of a violent encounter ? What do you think the goal is of close quarters combat technique and tactical philosophy ?

2] You said < He who feels humiliated might as well have his nipples tweaked
(squeezed sounds like too much fun) since he's gonna take
umbrage anyway. On the other hand, he who has been battered
is entitled to defend his honor, right? Or, at least, to get a
lawyer. *I* wouldn't have to do anything because
she's perfectly capable of calling her lawyer herself, regardless of
how she decided to respond. And isn't the humility of
transgression a victim's prerogative? What about the satisfaction
of knowing you didn't rise to the bait? >

I am not sure I understand your tactical message here !

3] You said < Zo, vee set zee stage for elevator. If ever punker get close
enough in da furz place to touch her, he be throat punched so
fast und groin striked same time mit knee. She haf very nice
knees!! Strong German knees!! I especially fond of close-quarters.
I imagine vee be polite and ask second boy if he vant to join his
frend on floor. >

So you are saying your wife would respond with violence justified in this instance ?

4] You said < *Fights* are
sumpzing zat eight-year-olds engage in!!! Fortunately, my vife
not need to vait for me to make John Wayne noises like "I'll take
over from here, little lady." She boddered by sumbotty, she able
to take care uf it herzelf! Jus like you or me! > > << Dis ist almoz da tventy-virst zenjury!! Vimmen dus der own zing,
now!! Chivalry nice concept, but vaste valuable time in zerious
confrontation. Better she no vut to do, und do it!! Vee vurk
togezer!! Get much more done!! Don chu tink? <<


What are you saying Mike ? " To fight or not to fight , that is the question why " !

5] You said < My partner in life, female, has spent the past several years
helping me notice some of the sexism in the culture. My objective
is to make a point about what I consider "olde-vorld behaviors,"
fighting in particular. As a "man's" activity it's something we all
*do*!! And it's a matter of pride to be good at it!! *Especially*
when defending one's spouse!!! I shudder to think how the poor
"inept" fares psychologically when he fails. <

This old world behavior is nothing else but nature's programming in our evolutionary process to ensure the survival of the human race ! How do you propose to stifle this instinctive behavior ?

Today if you find yourself in a fight worth fighting , you will probably be facing a psychopath ! The individuals who 'yanked ' at the nipples of the guy's wife and spit in the face of the husband in the elevator were just that __psychopaths ! Do you have advice for us as to how to handle that situation ?


------------------
Van Canna


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 1999 5:04 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 16, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 84
Location: Albuquerque NM USA
Dear Ms. Loftus & Ms. Olsen,

I've been doing a bit of minor tail-pulling on Van's forum on the Coffee Shop Showdown topic. I've maneuvered it to the point of bringing you into it, but am a tad concerned about folks getting carried away and wouldn't mind just dropping the topic. So, I thought it might be fun if you're inclined to participate, but wanted you to know where I'm coming from.

My partner in life, female, has spent the past several years helping me notice some of the sexism in the culture. My objective is to make a point about what I consider "olde-vorld behaviors," fighting in particular. As a "man's" activity it's something we all *do*!! And it's a matter of pride to be good at it!! *Especially* when defending one's spouse!!! I shudder to think how the poor "inept" fares psychologically when he fails. The whole thing seems tacitly bizarre!!! This is contemporary cul'chur!! Although this is outside Van's area, it does have to do with mindset.

Hope you can enjoy,

MFH - AKA: Der Hermanator

[This message has been edited by MFH (edited 05-16-99).]


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 1999 4:58 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 17, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 875
Across the cyber-waves I heard this thickly accented voice calling out for feminine opinion...

Dangerous move that! Actually asking a female for her opinion?!?

Actually - I've been venturing mine here on these forums for some time now - I believe that may be why I was given my own forum! So I could spout off without clogging up the "he-man" threads!

Seriously - good question about the female standpoint though that is perhaps deserving of it's own thread. I'll be posting one on my forum soon. Please add your input.

Peace,
Lori


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 Post subject: COFFEE BAR SHOWDOWN
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 1999 6:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 24, 1998 6:01 am
Posts: 468
Location: Marlboro,MA US
Mike,

It is not primarily about whether your 200lb girlfriend can fight on her own or not. It is about how you choose to conduct your life and what you stand for.
You wrote....

***************
she's perfectly capable of calling her lawyer herself, regardless of how she decided to respond. And isn't the humility of the transgression a victim's prerogative? What about the satisfaction of knowing you didn't rise to the bait?
****************

Just to let you know that this is not all hypothetical. Years ago I was out on a date with the person I would eventually marry. While I was talking to my brother, I big guy looked at her moving to the music at the edge of the dance floor. He took a second look, calmly walked over to her and grabbed her by the crotch. She was bruised he grabbed so hard. Is now a good time to call my lawyer? I can't even concieve having that thought that moment!
Maybe you should do consider why you are in Martil Arts.....


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