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 Post subject: Sanchin Shime
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:55 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCP7bB8chNE


We were all brought up with this 'beating' [testing] of the self and our students. I have experienced this type of extreme shime from Takamiagy sensei as most of us seniors have.

Do we still feel this way about 'testing' ?

Does giving a student or ourselves a 'beating' in extreme, even a knock down, when striking from behind, slamming kicks into the fold of the knees from the rear....

Does it really serve a purpose?

http://tinyurl.com/2ujez97

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:02 am 
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http://tinyurl.com/3y3nnfv


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Through Sanchin shime, the instructor systematically assesses the structure and stability of the karate-ka’s posture. The testing procedure can be gentle or extremely intense.

An experienced examiner can derive all the information necessary to diagnose the status of the karate-ka’s Sanchin through a few superficial pokes and prods.

The procedure when performed with a senior student can also be extremely intense and frightening to an inexperienced observer.

The student may be assailed with a barrage of punches, slaps, and kicks during the performance of his Sanchin. Shime must be done at a level commensurate with the level of experience, focus, and conditioning of the student.

Instructors must be sensitive to variations in a practitioner's general level of health and vigor as these variables may change from day to day or even within a single training episode.

Just as the over-enthusiastic and misguided conditioning practices condemned previously threaten serious harm, shime does not represent the student’s willingness to withstand the sadistic punishment of the teacher.

The student is not a “human makiwara,” Sanchin testing is not a “discipline exercise” in corporal punishment, and the process should not demonstrate “how tough” the teacher’s dojo is.

Instead, a comprehensive shime will assess the student's ability to maintain focused concentration and mastery over the degree of tension and relaxation demanded of the various agonist and antagonistic muscle groups in each aspect of the posture.


I hate to tell you how many prospective students I have lost when they walked out of my dojo during such demonstrations. :(

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:06 am 
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The instructor first applies simple pressure to the nukite [3.] then strikes the fingertips with his palms. The instructor seeks to “feel the floor” when pressing down upon the student’s fingers. [how many students have we hurt this way?]

This “feel the floor” concept results from the proper stability of the entire Sanchin posture. Any “break” in focus, such as a lax elbow or improper posture results in structural collapse at that point.

Counteraction of the finger flexors and extensors, with the thumb actively pulling towards the heel, stabilizes the palm and fingers in a proper nukite. The student stabilizes wrists and elbows by balancing the relevant flexor and extensors.

Once the student achieves proper arm, hand, shoulder and trunk structure, the instructor should find that the student’s hands feel as though they are attached to a pliable yet enormously strong structure.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:08 am 
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The instructor tests the stability of the shoulder girdle by stoutly striking the arms posed in Sanchin kamae. Should the shoulder girdle feel slack, the likely deficiency is insufficient tension in the latissimus dorsi rather than the deltoids.

Beginners often interpret the focus of Sanchin as an “all or nothing” choice. As an exercise, shime teaches proper focus at the point of initiation and completion. In order to move and strike, the student must learn when, where, and to what degree to relax.

The shoulders, for example, require relative relaxation to serve as hinges upon which a powerful strike may pivot to completion and kime (focus).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:09 am 
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The instructor tests the abdominal and pectoralis major muscles to assess the student's structural integrity and balance [4]. As with all of the strikes discussed, these assist the practitioner in developing a conditioned or “iron” body and will.

The instructor assesses and conditions the thigh muscles-- the rectus femorus and the quadriceps -- with a mawashi geri (round kick) [5]. The instructor similarly tests and conditions the muscles lateral to the shin, the peroneus group].

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:11 am 
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The instructor progresses in this systematic way particularly with beginners.

Shime is not a game to “fool” the student or teach him to “guess” where the instructor will test him.

With completion of the test of the anterior portions of the student’s body, the instructor continues with the posterior aspects.

The instructor begins with the trapezius shoulder regions. The instructor may first palpate the trapezius or apply a measured strike to test the tone.

The instructor tests the shoulders with an open hand slap.

This conditions the shoulders as well as insures that the student does not raise his shoulders in anticipation of testing.

When the shoulders are slapped, the hands should have the same feeling as is derived from slapping a properly inflated basketball. If a ball does not have the proper inflation, the hands will "sink" into it. [6] & [7]


You don't 'chop' at the shoulders....

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:12 am 
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The latissimus dorsi pull down and stabilize the shoulder girdle. The instructor checks the latissimus dorsi with three measured seiken tzuki (closed fist) strikes. [8]

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:13 am 
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Depending on the level of the student, the instructor may test the gastrocnemius (main upper calf muscle) will either gentle pressure or a sokuto geri (snap sidekick).


Careful here or you can blow out a student's knee with a cheap shot from behind.

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 Post subject: So the anser is...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:16 am 
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Yes!! Of course a 5th Dan should be tested that hard... Ha! You got me.. I thought that you didn't like it for a moment...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:18 am 
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Finally, the gluteal area and the external oblique muscles should be prodded to assure that the hips and waist are appropriately tensed to facilitate the pelvis tuck necessary to stabilize the spine and consolidate the posture


Not much else is really needed unless either you or the student want to show off in the give and take.

And why is it that even the toughest, best conditioned person who takes a good beating in sanchin...will still be knocked out in a fight against a good puncher/boxer?

Robb, what are Joe Lewis views on this subject?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:32 am 
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BTW...there was a comment about the shime video clip by Stevie B. that it wasn't a beating, in the other similar thread that I deleted.


I agree...I only posted that to render the idea of the thread.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:06 am 
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And why is it that even the toughest, best conditioned person who takes a good beating in sanchin...will still be knocked out in a fight against a good puncher/boxer?

Robb, what are Joe Lewis views on this subject?[/quote]

My thoughts on this are that this is due to the fact that many exceptional fighters of all styles are cursed with a "glass jaw" that no amount of conditioning care cure. Great fighters like Floyd Patterson, Andre Arlovski, and possibly Brock Lesnar come to mind. Fantastic fighters all, but if clocked can be down for the count. Then there were guys like Ali who had phenominal ability to take a punch.

And, because in the dojo training without gloves we don't hit to the head. When a karateka does get hit in the head he may not be prepared for the shock. Whether a karateka cross trains in boxing or not, I think it is a good idea to put on 16 oz. gloves occasionally and box to become familiar with hitting an opponent as hard to the face and head as possible and to get hit in the face as well.

Definitely a place for body conditioning, but I wouldn't delude myself into thinking that it cures everything.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:07 pm 
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Recently my daughter who has been doing uechi for 11 years was arm conditioning with one of my brown belts who outweighs her by about 80-90 pounds, and she was giving as much as she was taking, pounding away, as expected of the instructors daughter.
Afterwards her hand wouldn't stop shaking and it took two days for it to go away. She is a very serious piano player and had difficulty with her lesson and practice the next two days. Luckily she is fine now.
It made me rethink it to some degree. Does the benefit outweigh the cost in some cases?

In that video, in reality who is going to come up behind me and target my legs in an attack?

F.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:16 pm 
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I see what Josann is saying and somewhat agree.. I would like to point out however being a friend of George for the last 20 + years, that this was not a usual check.. Gerry was getting ready to test for his GoDan and asked George to take him to the extreme as a personal challenge.. I guess it depends on how a person really wants to take themselves.. I have heard all sorts of arguments against it..One guy in Nova Scotia wrote once " that the hard conditioning will impede movement and actually slow a person down". Whoever said that has not sparred Shuichi Shinjo , Yoshimitsu Matsuzaki, or Nobihiro Higa..Tomoyose Sensei is a fine example that the long term health is deteriorated by this type of training... taking into account that he is also a Master of Japanese Calligraphy as well (which fine hand coordination is also a must) leads me to believe that this type of thinking is more based on people's wish not to take it to that level..I remember being at Toyama Sensei house one day, and at 80 years old he came strolling up the steep hillside at a pace that would be hard for a young man after spending 3 hours below chopping trees.. I don't think that anyone should push themselves past their own limitations (where ever it may be at that particular time) but for myself personally, I have been in situations through out the World that it has probably saved my life more than once.. As far as the head contact... There are different rules depending where you train.. I learned to keep my hands up and block pretty quickly as an alternative to having a broken nose.. But I agrre that whether it's boxing gloves or bare knuckles it's a good idea to protect your face and groin... But because of the conditioning aforded by Sanchin Shime, I found it's easier to protect those 2 areas that can't be conditioned than it would be to protect the entire body.. As for the kicking the legs from behind Frank.. It sort of relates to the Zen training that we discussed in the other forum.. Gerry really is oblivious to where George is striking him.. He is only concerned with performing Sanchin..Again, this isn't always taught by hard strikes... But what if an assailant does attack? Doubtful he would hit soft...


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:53 pm 
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Hopefully we won't be standing still waiting for "the big attack".

Mobility is the key to not getting hit , "don't be there". In a perfect world our footwork and use of angles would be enough to avoid being hit.......unfortunatly it's not a perfect world. :?

Shimes' puspose is to sharpen 'Sanchin Focus' which isthe last line of defense. :o

When our weapons systems fail, our defences are crumbling and we are 'out of gas' .......What do we do ? If are core attributes include a good strong test we are then accustomed to phyisical duress and are less likely to panic under fire............... :wink:

I took alot of flack for teaching kids chokes..................

A child in a playground altercation is likely to be choked ; if it has never happened to them before they are likely to panic under pressure they could be injured or killed if they don't know how to react to it. :cry:

"Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" -The Killer Elite

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