Safety Bullet

Sensei Canna offers insight into the real world of self defense!

Moderator: Van Canna

Safety Bullet

Postby Van Canna » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:34 pm

Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:24 am

But I would not buy one. It could get you killed in an emergency where you will act out of operant conditioning.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Jason Rees » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:36 pm

Interesting.

I'm getting a handgun sometime in the next few months. Still not completely set on what I'm getting (leaning towards 10mm). Thanks for posting this, it'll give me something to think about, Van.
Life begins & ends cold, naked & covered in crap.
User avatar
Jason Rees
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:06 am
Location: USA

Postby Van Canna » Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:04 am

I would stay with a .45 ACP in a 1911. Plenty of stopping power and cheaper to shoot...and you will need lots of practice and to learn the right way.
Then you will have the operant conditioning to worry about...if you get the safety bullet.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Jason Rees » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:41 am

Van, I've been told by sources here in Alaska and elsewhere that the 10mm would be far better against bear than .45 ACP (which back in the lower 48 I'd considered ideal). 1911 would be grand (I've got training on it).
Others recommended to me were the .44 and the new S&W .50 ... But I can't imagine walking or biking anywhere with a cannon like that, much less doing concealed carry.
Which is pretty much what I want this for: biking or hiking with the fam, in places frequently used by two-legs, but also frequented by four-legs, as pretty much anything in the Anchorage bowl goes.
As for ammo costs... Gonna be steep for sure! Wife's going to learn it too. Good thing we've got our PFD coming! :D .45-70 rounds for the rifle ain't cheap either.

Any other thoughts?
Life begins & ends cold, naked & covered in crap.
User avatar
Jason Rees
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:06 am
Location: USA

Postby Van Canna » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:44 pm

I did not realize your reason for the pistol Jason.

Yes, as a rifle backup in bear country, a good 10mm round is the one recommended.

But I would not want to carry dead weight and prefer a gun that can take lots of abuse and still function properly.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/protection_field.htm

This pistol would be my choice
The most commonly available, reasonably portable, autoloader that might serve our purpose is the Glock Model G20, chambered for the 10mm Auto (.40 caliber) cartridge.

The G-20 is as reliable as a powerful auto gets and relatively compact. This pistol comes with a 4.6" barrel, is 7.59" in overall length and weighs only 26.28 ounces. In recent years Glock has promoted the G20 as a hunting pistol.



And as to ammunition for it
The problem is the limited availability of suitable ammunition for the 10mm Auto cartridge. Remington is not offering any 10mm ammo and Federal has only a single 10mm Light (FBI type) load. The Winchester 10mm factory load with a 175 grain Silvertip JHP bullet has an advertised muzzle velocity (MV) of 1290 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 649 ft. lbs.

This load offers about the most energy that can be had from a 10mm factory load, but the Silvertip JHP handgun bullet is known more for rapid expansion than deep penetration.

Hornady offers a 10mm factory load using their 200 grain jacketed hollow point XTP bullet (MV 1050 fps, ME 490 ft. lbs.). Hornady recommends this bullet for "medium game," which would presumably include wolf, cougar, jaguar and black bear, but not grizzly, brown and polar bear.
~~


You will need a bullet with deep penetration.

This would be my choice


Cor-Bon offers a 10mm load in their Hunter line that drives a 200 grain (SD .179) Penetrator round-nose (RNPN) bullet at 1125 fps and 562 ft. lbs. This is the 10mm load I would choose for protection in the field.

The Cor-Bon Hunter line also includes a 180 grain (SD .161) bonded core soft point (BCSP) bullet at a MV of 1300 fps and ME of 676 ft. lbs. The best 10mm Auto loads are about equivalent to the best .357 Magnum revolver loads.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Here she is

Postby Van Canna » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:56 pm

Image

In my opinion, if I were to buy a 10mm I'd go with the Glock, it will probably hold up to the high power rounds better than anything else. Hand comfort is something only you can judge.


But it will be a bit of a 'cannon' in your hands. :D
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Van Canna » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:29 pm

Bears being unpredictable by nature, there are times when even the most careful person will have no choice but to use a weapon against a bear, and in this case what we are looking for is NOT volume of fire.

You want to damage the bear in such a way that it will be unable to continue its attack, this means damaging its skeletal structure or central nervous system so that it is physically incapable of moving toward you.

A heart shot will probably kill it, but not necessarily before it kills or seriously injures you. I am not an expert on bear anatomy, but in this situation I would want to aim for the front shoulders if possible.

Do not try for the head, a bear's skull is thick and has been known to deflect bullets. If you manage to put it down, do not assume it is dead. Put several shots into the head and spine, and while reloading get to a good position of observation far enough away that if it is not quite dead you will not be in immediate danger, and wait for a few minutes to be sure it is dead.

Your actions at this point will be determined by the extent of the injuries of any members of your party, and the laws of your jurisdiction concerning destroying a bear in self defense.

As with any animal wounds, any wounds dealt by the bear should be thoroughly cleaned and disinfected, you do not know what bits of rotting matter are under an animal's claws; in any event seek medical attention ASAP. Before venturing into bear country know what is legally expected of you in this scenario.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Van Canna » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:30 pm

Recommended reading:

Alaska Bear Tales, by Larry Kaniut. A book of mostly true stories about bear experiences which will help to give the reader a better understanding of the nature of bears and bear defense. There is also a sequel out entitled "More Alaska Bear Tales."
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Van Canna » Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:35 pm

as a further note, since animals do not exibit the same self awareness and reasoning/psychology as humans, they are not going(and often do not) to immediately associate the pain of a mortal or crippling wound as being such, and are likely to continue to attack until literally killed, or disabled with a heavy CNS shot. Simple example is deer running a mile or more with no heart/lungs after a killing shot by a hunter.

Humans KNOW what a gunshot means, and even slight wounds can be instantly incapacitating due to panic or shock.
On the other hand, mortal wounds can and have been fully ignored for long enough to continue and finish a violent attack.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Jason Rees » Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:36 pm

Van, you are the man.
Any significant trade-off between the Glock 20 and the Glock 29?
And can a 'longer barrel' on a .44 or .357 get sufficient muzzle velocity to match the 10mm for effectiveness? (off-the-cuff claim I'm following up on).
Life begins & ends cold, naked & covered in crap.
User avatar
Jason Rees
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:06 am
Location: USA

See this discussion

Postby Van Canna » Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:42 am

Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Van Canna » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:15 am

The way I look at a 'bear gun' ….as discussed many times when hunting with Jim Maloney in Canada…is like this:

1. Even large bore rifles are considered to be marginal when coming up against a bear intent on killing you.

2. Then you have the primal fear setting in if suddenly coming face to face with a bear charging you or ambushing you out of the woods.

3. There is a pretty good chance that rifle fire at any ambush range will miss the target under the extreme fight or flight you [any of us] would experience.

4. Trying to hit a bear from even a short distance with a handgun is even more difficult.

5. You won't be hunting bears, but you will carry a 'bear rifle' and a 10mm pistol as 'back up' _

6. Should you suddenly find yourself up against a bear…if there will be any time at all to get a weapon into action…it will be your Marlin lever rifle.

7. A back up handgun is something you will have easy access to…in an emergency when a bear is almost on top of you and you won't be able to use the rifle.

8. At this moment and with no extra room to move feely…you will want a small powerful handgun with hard cast bullets [bear loads] that will penetrate deeply when fired at the bear's body/head/face…a foot or so in distance….when you are in the convulsions of primal fear.

9. Here I would prefer a small powerful handgun with a short barrel that won't get in the way ….

10. So the Glock 29 is just about perfect in 10mm.
~~

Again, what use will you put the safety bullet :?:
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Postby Jason Rees » Thu Jan 06, 2011 7:56 am

Safety bullet... an oddity that doesn't make sense for anything other than storing guns you don't plan to use... Even my wife, who knows nothing about guns other than the M-16 she fired on the range 15 years ago, can see the flaws in using the thing in a handgun you need to use. Me, I over-think things and don't let go till I'm done chewing on them, I suppose.

I've been eying the 29 for almost a year. I'm just wondering if the recoil or 'jump' is significantly worse in the 29 than it is in the 20. From what I've seen on Youtube, where they're used by the same person, I'm not seeing any really noticeable difference.
Life begins & ends cold, naked & covered in crap.
User avatar
Jason Rees
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1754
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:06 am
Location: USA

Postby Van Canna » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:11 pm

29 vs. 20 recoil does seem close as per articles and videos.
I envision a defensive handgun vs. a hunting one…as almost a 'belly gun' that gets fired under a convulsive moment in chaotic conditions at very close range_ where 'accuracy' or recoil is secondary. You probably would not get more than one or two shots in a bear assault at close range….any 'longer ranges' requiring rifle shots if there is time to point and shoot.
In bear country I would carry the slinged rifle upside down over my left shoulder….so that I would be able to swing the rifle butt up and into my left shoulder with my left hand _as my right hand and head move into firing position.
Your wife is right about the safety bullet making no sense in a handgun kept loaded for immediate use…as under stress it will be impossible to remember and perform the racking of the slide once or twice to clear. And then you would be one or two less useful rounds.
In a revolver…it will become just about useless after the trigger is pulled and the safety bullet activates as you will need a 'rod' to clear the gun.

Storage wise, I would not feel comfortable storing loaded guns long term. Best to have them empty and trigger locked.
Van
User avatar
Van Canna
 
Posts: 45154
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am

Next

Return to Van Canna's Self Defense Realities

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 3 guests