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 Post subject: Against boxers?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Jim Prouty sent me this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5UFB5Ch ... ture=email

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:38 pm 
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Not saying it will not work but I tried something quite similar on a room mate (good amateur boxer) in the early 80`s. I tried to clear his hands when we were goofing around...guess who had faster hands? I made the mistake of entering "his world". The leg kick would be the best option IMO.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:22 pm 
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I agree, Leo.

To get within punching range of a boxer to mess with his guard or even worse to try to block a punch...is suicide.

Even a leg kick is no guarantee of 'entering the guard' for a strike.

They train differently than we do ...have faster reflexes...and are used to crunching impact to the body and head.

Take Bridget, Maloney's wife, for example...soon to go pro on the boxing circuit...one won't get any chance to break the distance without getting hit half a dozen times with explosive punches.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:47 am 
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I'd be interested to see him use that tactic against a skilled boxer, instead of his student doing a poor imitation of a boxer.

I've seen Thai boxers use a shove like that against opponents who keep to rigid a structure in their arms. But most good boxers won't get that tight unless their already overwhelmed.

It's sad to me how much time some martial artist invest in trying to figure out "how to beat a boxer" without ever actually stepping in the ring with one. It all sounds nice in theory, but, as the old boxing adage goes "Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face."

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:04 am 
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Quote:
It's sad to me how much time some martial artist invest in trying to figure out "how to beat a boxer" without ever actually stepping in the ring with one. It all sounds nice in theory, but, as the old boxing adage goes "Everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face."


Thanks for the post Jake. This is so true.

A problem that may haunt some Uechi or other stylists who are used to take body punishment, such as in sanchin testing, is that they feel their wauke blocks will take care of the 'head' against a good puncher [head hunter] _

Oh well...a hit in the face need not even be full power to daze/stop anyone not used to taking shots to the jaw/chin/nose...

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:11 am 
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George may remember a student we had in the Boston dojo, a boxer, who then began to study Shorin-Ryu and used to come up to my open sparring classes on Wed. nights.

I really enjoyed sparring with him because of his fast hands and reading skills.

One thing he did I still remember well was ...to close the distance on me as I began a front snap kick and slam both his palms on my knee as it raised...and I was a 'natural kicker' in those days fresh from my soccer competitions.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:15 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
A problem that may haunt some Uechi or other stylists who are used to take body punishment, such as in sanchin testing, is that they feel their wauke blocks will take care of the 'head' against a good puncher [head hunter] _

Oh well...a hit in the face need not even be full power to daze/stop anyone not used to taking shots to the jaw/chin/nose...


Getting hit by someone with bad intentions for the first time is profoundly life-changing experience.

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 Post subject: Just an opinion
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Quote:
wauke blocks


Wauke "block" is very ineffective in preventing a blow to the head when the punch coming in is already above your own elbows (which most incoming head shots are). The time creating the circle and the resources used in even thinking of "blocking" sets you up for a lot of head shots before you even start to realize you are a human speed bag. "Blading" works better because it`s actually a disruptive movement and your hand position does not weaken your guard even if you fail to take advantage of the "blade" ... a wauke is in travel mode and will need to brake before returning if it does not control what it was seeking. The wauke is a powerful tool when studied not just considered a "block".
I like to view it as a honing steel that "sharpens the knives".

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:45 pm 
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True enough Leo.

And the 'blocking problem/mind set' is exacerbated by our mainly blocking straight karate punches and not the kind of punches/combinations that a good puncher/boxer will throw.

Take jabs - uppercuts and hooks as an example...for many of us they are invisible punches especially when thrown in combination in a split second. 'No see no time'....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:29 am 
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I watched his "against boxers", and then his "against grapplers" .

You know that old saying "If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all"?

That man has stricken me mute.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:44 am 
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So now that we've established that we (Uechi and/or traditional martial arts in general?) have no answer for a boxer, what techniques can we import and integrate so as to be able to handle one?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:05 am 
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Good question...has this ever been put to any Okinawan masters? If so _it would be interesting to know what they recommend so we can discuss it here.

And how many master instructors have really been against a good boxer to speak from experience?

Or is it really necessary?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:43 pm 
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Quote:
no answer for a boxer


I briefly took boxing lessons in the past in an attempt to improve my kick boxing ability. Through acquaintances I lucked out getting private lessons from Donnie Johnson and Lawrence Grace (both pro`s and from a lineage of pro fighters). Sparring with them they only welted my forehead instead of causing real damage (I already had a broken nose at the time :lol: )
Lawrence (rest his soul) use to fight in the ring for a dollar a round in his youth, often unsanctioned prize fights. From Lawrence I learned "economy of movement" and a "nifty" sucker punch that blends in beautifully in the system called Uechi . From Donnie watching/reading the whole person not the arms. Also, the benefit of keeping your chin tucked...not only for your protection but it triggers more aggressive speed. Both these guys could and have handled themselves on the street, never once did they limit themselves to the "ring game" and they had the advantage of sensing the will of the "victim" (victim because of preemptive strike) to react effectively or be controlled. They did not fight a method of fighting just the fighter. My point? I believe that if you are going against someone who has seen and felt advantage/disadvantage then one must have the same experience to face that opponent in an uncontrolled situation. Boxers do not experience a stoppage after a point is called. Get the first blow in before the game is on, and be prepared to escalate faster than he.

Would one trim the branches in your way before cutting down a tree if your life depended on it? :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Good topic.
The JKD mantra is "never box a boxer". You kick or grapple those guys. "Never kick against a kicker", you box or grapple those guys. And so on.
I agree with Jake, get in a ring (or your dojo) with a boxer. Humbling. But it will be a great lesson. The boxing phase of JKD was completely new to me when I started training in this art in 1990. It is an integral part of JKD.
BTW, speaking of boxing, if you haven't seen the movie The Fighter-GO. It is a really great flick and good insight into this sport.
Raf

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 Post subject: The Only Way...
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 1:09 pm 
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if one really wants to find out if one's tactics will work is to take a go at it, and with more than one boxer, as each boxer has his own favored arsenal/tactics base on physical/mental traits.

Kin's fighting Lowell Golden Gloves Today, finally... He showed up four times and had no opponents in his weight category. Tonight, special fight night (Lowell comps usually Tuesdays). All four are automatically in the semi-finals, and guaranteed a fight (and then onto next Tuesday's finals). He's a bit disappointed as he has "fought" more in training that would in this comp. He's been going 9-10 rounds with alternating (fresh) opponents, opponents of different sizes, as well as some very experienced pros (with the latter, he said these are "lessons" in humility and how to "sukk it up" as you take a whooppin').

Similarly to what Jake posted, all the mumbo-jumbo and best laid plans are just that until one can demonstrate/implement against a honestly resisting opponent.

david


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