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 Post subject: On the other hand
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:28 pm 
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The aim in karate for the streets is to disable the opponent very quickly and the aim is to rule out (generally) any protracted battle including grappling contact…

...we all like to think we have this capability against any opponent. Fine.

But do we really?

Think about what you do most in your training_ that exactly what you will do in a real fight.

Remember that Karate practitioners can become ‘locked’ into a training mentality.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:33 pm 
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A strong blow by anyone to a vulnerable part of the body such as the head can cause a fight-stopping effect.

Serious karate practitioners training to do this _just like good boxers_ can easily knock someone out.

But do we really when doing mostly 'air strikes' in our workouts...

and would we really be able to 'score' on a fast moving boxer?

Like Jake said...when was the last time we scored on boxers?

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 Post subject: We can argue...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:39 pm 
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That ....Boxers don’t train in chops to the throat, fingers to the eyes and elbows to the temple.

And If the boxer isn’t a big puncher, has poor boxing defense and isn’t good at movement, he’s also in trouble.

OK

But... don't we train to to be reactive and to first block then counter for the most part?

This is significant because we will do as we train without realizing it...

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Now we have Otto with the wise comment
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I think the mistake most people make when thinking about “the Karate Man vs. The Boxer” is the venue in which they imagine the contest.


Who really cares to take on a boxer to prove some 'superiority' in some sporting/dojo context?

We should be thinking in terms of street defense.

I. e., where will we be when a fight breaks out…on the road… in a bar at a house party/…while shopping at a mall… at a gas station…in a public men's room…you pick it.

Someone is about to attack you for whatever reason, either suddenly or after exchanging words and he happens to have some boxing skills, has boxed, or is a boxer and a power puncher.

But you don't know any of this…he may or may not get into a boxing stance…or he may just suddenly fire off a quick combination of punches, the kind a boxer practices and you don't…but hope you can catch in the 'wauke net' in our discussions here.

Your fight will likely be in close quarters where most likely the boxer will have an advantage because of the speed of his 'combo' punches _your being stuck in a reactive mode, and your ability to kick being neutralized by the close quarters.

… How much room do you have to fight?

Who gets the first shot in?

Well…with our block and counter training mentality and conditioning…the boxer probably will…and if so… you will be dazed _stopped… or knocked out.

The reality is that for the most part…If you want to win …you must throw a sucker punch (or the equivalent sucker technique.)

Catch your enemy when they aren’t paying attention and make it count.

Incapacitate them by knocking them unconscious or by doing something that really hurts–then incapacitate them with follow up stuff.

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 Post subject: Well put Vann...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:08 pm 
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That is a really good explanation of real life in my opinion... Point on!! And if they have some Wrestling, Judo, or Ju Jitsu background after that it would mean real trouble..


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:05 pm 
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"Who really cares to take on a boxer to prove some 'superiority' in some sporting/dojo context? "

No, should not care too much unless one is a hard-cored (or professional) competitor. At the same time, the rules of the comp and how hard the comp also ingrain the type of action/reaction one will have in a self defense situation.

Kin got suckered by two teens in the subway station. The two first went off by calling him slurs (short interview). Kin talked back and the first/closest one sucker punched Kin. Kin didn't go down and immediate countered with some punching combos and dropped the first attacker and went immediately to engaging the second. In the midst of engaging the second, the cops intervened and stopped the fight. They actually saw how the altercation started and told Kin to go home, while they held the other two kids at the station.

Kyle the younger son was hanging with a couple of his friends at the park. A group of teens (13-15) headed over their way. Kyle tried to move away with his friends (they all sensed something was going to happen) but the pack sped up after them. Lead kid in the pack suckered punch Kyle. Kyle immediate pulled the kid in with a Thai clinch and kneed him multiple times in the ribs and dropped him. Thankfully, this pack was inexperienced and not hard cored. They looked at the dropped buddy, picked him up and headed the other way.

In both case, I am not surprised at sons' reactions. I've trained both with (increasing) contact sparring since they were 13 years old on. I know what their responses are in tight quarters as long as they are not unconscious.

Ultimately, I have no vested interest in saying which style or approach is better than the other (Again, share Otto's perspective). I just think that if one is going to talk/think about self defense, there are really very few feedback mechanisms better than an honest resisting sparring partner/opponent. How brutally honest the feedback is determined by the types of parameters one wants to set to the test (in agreement with the partner/opponent).

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 Post subject: Re: Well put Vann...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:45 pm 
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Stevie B wrote:
That is a really good explanation of real life in my opinion... Point on!! And if they have some Wrestling, Judo, or Ju Jitsu background after that it would mean real trouble..


Yes, and so many today, even punks, have some sort of grappling background. And even if they don't...there is a good chance the one or the two of them will 'football' tackle you at some point and down you go becoming a soccer ball.

Some of us who have watched our Joey Pomfret [Bethoney's student] in his UFC matches learned quite a lot about violence dynamics.

You get taken down, and if you are still okay from the fall_but have no grappling experience...you're in trouble.

How many of us still think we will not be taken down ever in a fight because of our karate skills?

I've always found that comical in conversations. :lol:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:56 pm 
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David
Quote:
At the same time, the rules of the comp and how hard the comp also ingrain the type of action/reaction one will have in a self defense situation.


True. Even the competition of years past, with full contact to the body, but not to the head_ was most excellent in ingraining real fighting skills, though some people still argue this point.

When we fought tournaments and had the chance to observe fighters like Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris and others of similar caliber…there was no question of well they could fight in real life. Plenty of examples of this …involving those fighters.
Quote:
I just think that if one is going to talk/think about self defense, there are really very few feedback mechanisms better than an honest resisting sparring partner/opponent. How brutally honest the feedback is determined by the types of parameters one wants to set to the test (in agreement with the partner/opponent).


Thanks, David…very sobering words.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:13 pm 
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The one thing that a good Karate man does have in that situation is knowledge of the human anatomy and hopefully some strong hands to grip with and sharp weapons to grind with.. I have found through training with Ju Jitsu instructors that they find it very uncomfortable to hold on to someone grinding a Shoken or Hiraken into nerves and vital spots..Or even Sokusens if yours hands are tied... But it can definately present a lot of problems for sure!! And you are right Vann.. The build up and publicity of the UFC's has unleashed a tidal wave of punks out there with way too much knowledge that they have picked up simply from watching TV.. Unfortunately... :cry:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:20 am 
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Judo students use shokens and hirakens in groundfighting. Hirakens in a lapel grip to drive into the arteries along the neck for example in a top mount choke. If a rear naked choke is being defended my judo instructor taught me to use a shoken, grinding down along the jaw to create space to get the arm in.
In Uechi when we step in to a deep stance to deliver the elbow in kanshiwa for example, to me this is just as much about stability to prevent being taken down as anything. Uechi is definately loaded with grappling defense etc.. Sometimes you discover in training other arts it was there in Uechi all along waiting for discovery.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:49 am 
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Quote:
I have found through training with Ju Jitsu instructors that they find it very uncomfortable to hold on to someone grinding a Shoken or Hiraken into nerves and vital spots..Or even Sokusens if yours hands are tied...


I agree...I also recall the steel fingers of Tomoyose and Nakahodo senseis 8O

Fred, excellent points :) The pointed weapons we develop in Uechi are fabulous.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:01 am 
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There are a lot of weapons in Uechi that we have just not thought about.. Or maybe how to use.. I have a Kohai at the Yomitan Dojo of the Shinjos now, that also is an instructor of a type of Ju Jitsu.. I can at least speak for my friend to the extent that he is a very serious student of the real World, and will try to send some video over soon.. Very good stuff to know for sure!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:58 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc9BPpY0 ... ure=autofb

Hope it at least brings some concepts to mind.. Lot's of stuff on youtube.. When it comes to grappling it just takes some feeling the techniques and experiencing some real life I believe...As far as boxing ( back to the subject) that is why they call it "The sweetest art" sooooooo many what if's????
Ahh well... we tried..


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:11 am 
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I used to visit Mattson Academy in Boston before I ever actually started training. It's what lit the fire under my young ass. I watched the “old guard” training, and a few times, while I sat quietly hiding by the top of the stairs, I watched them spar. It was not something you would sell to the feint of heart. As I look back on it, with many years under my belt, it was not just the combat aspects of the sparring, (which was sometimes nasty and crazy to a young man) it was the attitude, camaraderie, approach and the sheer joy in which they battled.

There was no internet in those days. No MMA. No discussions of who would win between boxers, wrestlers, Karate men or street fighters. There was only training and hard core sparring. The men I watched were not influenced by reputations of other styles or sports, they were not interested in who did what to who, or who might be better at what. There was only training and combat. There was an attitude of “keep your guard up and don't back down.” I believe that attitude has carried over to what we do in Karate today.

You take any fighter, from anywhere, from any style, with that approach to training/fighting, and that man will be a force to reckon with. Against anyone, anywhere.

Forgive me for these long posts, but another thing – boxing, which I LOVE, is a sport and a fighting style. But Karate is so very much more. And, God, is it fun to do.

If you ask me to build a warrior from the ground up, a real warrior, one who has to go into actual life and death combat, I'll take a Martial Artist and train him. For he has sacrificed, he is disciplined and he knows more angles of attack than ANY sport that uses only hands.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 5:38 am 
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Thanks for the memories Otto. I know you were there on many occasions, watching, taking it all in. And you did a great job with the 'inspiration' that got you to great combat skills as a practitioner and teacher.

Yes, the old Mattson Academy in Boston, was a very special place like no other I will ever know in my life...and a place of many of my dreams. There was so much more than just the best karate in Boston that seemed to attract so many other people from different styles to test themselves against the 'old guard' ...and the parties...oh well...the fondest of memories...if not for George, who held it all together....

I could write a book about it.

So glad to have you on my forum, Otto...you are one of the best. :)

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