Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Sat Apr 19, 2014 1:53 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The "count"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Quote:
Count Dante is a familiar name in the short history of the MA in the USA. From about 1965 to his death in 1975 he was regarded as the black sheep of American karate.
He started out as a promising karateka in Robert Trias' "United States Karate Association" and he was an important figure in the early development of karate in America's Midwest. However, after he left (or was expelled from) Trias' organisation it was felt that he had "gone wrong". He set up his own system and as Massad Ayoob has written, " developed an obscene fascination with the most brutal part of the martial arts."

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Quote:
Dante promoted America's first full contact tournament as far back as 1967, sold his booklet " The world's Deadliest Fighting Secrets" with the assistance of a big, over the top advertising campaign in comics and magazines and generally tried to put himself over as "The Crown Prince of Death".

His style was designed specifically for street combat and so this may simply be a reflection of how society itself has grown more violent over the years. Unfortunately, little technical material has been printed on the Dante style, but basically it seems to be a close quarters system (The legs are mainly for transportation, Dante would say) which stress smashing, gouging, and joint breaking techniques. Even more than technique however, Count Dante stressed the importance of attitude. Page 12 of his book (1968) reads: ...


" ...Special note: Proper emphasis on courage, aggressiveness, and actual training hall and street application of effective fighting techniques, is the most serious lacking segment in modern day karate and kung fu schools... most karate schools place little emphasis on courage or "guts fighting" and aggressiveness and usually even frown on it. They also do not permit body contact in their self-defence and sparring practice. This makes for a safe training hall but does little to help develop the body to withstand strike punishment and actually hinders the student when they are forced to use it on the street.
Remember, the only true test of a fighting man is what he can do, and no more. Form practice, sparring, self defence practice and brick breaking are meaningless if the man cannot withstand the burden of the 'real thing'..."

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Quote:
[The backbone of the Dante system was his emphasis on mental attitude. In contrast with many Oriental concepts of "mind like placid lake"..."Mind like the moon", of being calm, cleaning the mind of all thought and emotion prior to combat, Dante believed that you should 'psych' yourself up with 100% aggressiveness and viciousness, attacking in a furious and unrestrained manner. In 'Defense Combat' Oct 1976, Bill Aguair was asked to define the Dante system and how it differed from other systems.

"It isn't the techniques of the system, it's the attitude - and that is a 7 to 10 second drive to the wall, completely going in for one thing and one thing only - to get the opponent down and out and everything over as quickly as possible."
Dante then advocated attacking (or counter attacking) at full speed, exploding at the enemy with total ruthlessness and ferocity. Again Aguair has some sage advice.

"A streetfight is something quick, it doesn't last 11 minutes. A fight in the street is one jam. People don't break it up into rounds, you know... If you're gonna swing, you either do that, go all the way or don't do anything at all. I'm not advocating fighting at the drop of a hat, but when you gotta go, you gotta go. I mean it, it doesn't take much for you to throw a kick and try to pull it so you don't hurt somebody bad, and then the guy catches your leg and knocks you down - your head hits the kerbstone and now you've got a widow! The streets are pretty bad!" (Defense Combat - Oct 1976)
In line with Dante's ideas on situational self-defence, he would train people to fight in barstools and members of his school would smoke cigarettes and drink beer because, well, that's what they'd probably be doing if a fight started.
Unlike many people who practise the MA and develop new theories as regards self defence, Dante's

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Dug this up after watching an episode of Miami Vise last night and the villain was a fighter named Dante. Seemed to "mirror" the stories of the "count" (John Keehan). I remember seeing the ads he had in comic books when I was young and considering becoming a deadly weapon myself :lol:
Image

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Before the ads...

Image

Interesting group and pleased to have lined up in front of a couple of them.

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:58 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Central Kentucky
Quite interesting Leo. Thanks. 8)

_________________
Everything in Moderation


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:34 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:44 am
Posts: 131
Yes, that photo sure is one hell of a group. Wow!

I, too, remember seeing Count Dante's ads in the back of comic books. That ad you posted brought back sweet memories of youth.

Count Dante was a wild man, that's for sure. I used to hear all the stories of the "Karate Wars" in Chicago back in his time.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 17, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 2813
Location: Massachusetts
I remember hearing about the infamous "dojo wars" in Chicago too... IIRC, Keehan was actually arrested, tried and eventually acquitted for the death of one of his dojo-mates during an attack on a rival dojo. Dante's crew got brutal from the stories I heard. It was at a time when I was just getting going good and even tho I didn't listen the way I should have, that was my first introduction to the concept of there always being someone out there who has your number... and the best thing to do is just avoid them. I've met more than one nerd who got his butt whooped because he was silly enough to flaunt his "Black Dragon Society" membership card... proving once again that buying a book from the back of a comic isn't a substitute for real training. Someone told me a few years ago that the BDFS was HQed somewhere in Massachusetts now, but I have no idea how valid that is... the person is someone who's never lied to me tho... at least not to my knowledge. :wink: As a side note, I also heard that GEM-Sensei (along with Trias, Parker, Mirikian, Jhoon Rhee and other such greats of the time) were all at the very first "World Karate Championship" in the early 60s that was put on by Keehan. Comments GEM-Sensei?

Keehan targeted other dojo because he was upset at anyone else being even modestly successful teaching martial arts in "his" area. So he went out to prove that he was king of the heap there. While I don't have first-hand knowledge, I have heard that similar things happened (tho not on such a scale or with such violence) in other parts of the country... even Boston. Perhaps Van-Sensei or GEM-Sensei can let us know if there was any truth to those rumors. Keehan was also either involved or implicated in a LOT of different shady things.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Quote:
He set up his own system and as Massad Ayoob has written, " developed an obscene fascination with the most brutal part of the martial arts."


The man likely had talent and was driven. I did not know him so therefore can only speculate. Why does "21/2 men" come to mind?

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Quote:
I also heard that GEM-Sensei (along with Trias, Parker, Mirikian, Jhoon Rhee and other such greats of the time) were all at the very first "World Karate Championship" in the early 60s that was put on by Keehan. Comments GEM-Sensei?


Mas Tsuruoka was also there (standing next to GEM in above photo) At the Nova Scotia camp years ago I was very impressed by the gentleman. Humble and without question is worthy of mention.

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29731
http://www.karatekidzonline.com/masters/patburleson/

The Chicago tournament was put together by the 'count' and Bob Trias...a whole bunch of us attended from George's school...including George.

A most brutal affair to be sure. 8O

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29731
Quote:
Mas Tsuruoka was also there (standing next to GEM in above photo) At the Nova Scotia camp years ago I was very impressed by the gentleman. Humble and without question is worthy of mention.


Very true. He was most gracious to all, most respectful, and very generous with gifts and personal time.

A true karate master personified.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29731
Panther
Quote:
that was my first introduction to the concept of there always being someone out there who has your number...


So many out there, including some Uechi-ka, have a hard time grasping this truth of the world.
Quote:
While I don't have first-hand knowledge, I have heard that similar things happened (tho not on such a scale or with such violence) in other parts of the country... even Boston. Perhaps Van-Sensei or GEM-Sensei can let us know if there was any truth to those rumors.


True, but In Boston I never heard of that kind of dojo violence [the count's type]…

But in George's Boston dojo[the industry standard of the day] where I was in charge of a sparring class/team…we had a continuous stream of 'visitors' from other styles in the area and also from oriental 'visitors' of different fighting persuasions, hell bent at showing us what fighting was all about.

Some of the battles we had were truly 'epic' at times. Some of the visitors used to get kicked right through the large dojo floor entrance way and fly by George's office which was adjacent.

When I left to open up my own dojo, Bob Campbell took over the class, and the battles continued….Bob had to take some dire action at times to stop some real jerks coming in so as to prove themselves.

Occasionally there would be some non karate punk walking in off the street to take on the instructor.

One ex boxer came in and assaulted George, who punched and kicked him down the stairs and out the front door.

We did have some pretty bad injuries.

That's for another book to be written.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 15, 2002 6:01 am
Posts: 1445
Location: Jeddore
Days of the challenges seem to be over thankfully as no one has the right to be rude in another's home or place of business. I had a minor incident back in 1989 when a brown belt from another style joined our uechi club. He was rather insistent on doing something (possibly a kick if I recall correctly) his way and I asked him not to. If you please...do as the Roman`s do. When my back was turned he lunged at me but ended up tripping over my rear leg as I changed direction to help another student (those that know me understand my movements are very unpredictable at best ;)
Was not so difficult to clue in on what occurred so I pinned him and whispered "sweet things" in his ear....he left quietly and never returned. Everyone thought I side stepped and took him down with finesse :lol: Secrets out...just a lucky shodan that night. His former instructor told me later that he had a rather short fuse especially if corrected.

_________________
Léo


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The "count"
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:44 am
Posts: 131
Back in the seventies, early eighties, there was a fair amount of what we used to call “gunslingers” coming into our dojo to see who could fight. They didn't have to look far. They would see the dignity and respect of Karate and mistake it for weakness. I guess that's how they made the decision to walk into a dojo looking for a fight. Karate is about a lot of things, but it is always about fighting when threatened on Holy Ground. They had about the same chance as walking into a Hells Angels clubhouse looking to steal leather jackets.

I've been to a few tournaments that broke out into “dojo wars” later in the parking lot. Pretty stupid, and at times stressful to watch or breakup, but it always made for fun dialogue on the ride home.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group