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 Post subject: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:11 am

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
Tueller Drill...
Quote:
The Tueller Drill:

"A common test of handgun skill was to start with one’s hands at shoulder level with a holstered gun and place two shots on a target 7 yards away within 1.5 seconds. Typically, those trained with handguns can complete the drill in 1.3–1.4 seconds, although some have managed the task in less than one second.

Sgt. Tueller wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover those same 21 feet. So he measured as volunteers raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. "

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Quote:
Thus what has become known as the Tueller Drill proved that if your weapon is not in your hand, you are in danger from a rushing criminal with a knife twenty one feet away. Most people covered the twenty one feet in one and one half seconds for an average speed of fourteen feet / second.

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Quote:
If you are not prepared for a rush on your position from forty-two feet or seventy feet, because it is too far away to worry about, you are mistaken. Forty-two feet can be crossed in three seconds and seventy feet in five to six seconds.

One of the common methods of home invasion happening in our cities is the rush-in. The criminal hides nearby until the split second the victim opens her door, then rushes out of hiding and slams into the victim, pushing her through the door which is quickly closed. This type of attack also happens at atm machines.

But what if you do have a gun in your hands and you are not caught by surprise, which you probably will.

When do you shoot? At what distance?

And what if you hit him once/twice/three times?

Will the armed opponent stop? Or will his adrenaline carry him over to you and stab you several times while you hold your smoking gun?

Watch this video.

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:14 am

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
The police study...

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Tuel ... .Close.htm

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:33 am

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:44 pm
Posts: 129
People are funny. When I used to teach the 21 foot rule a lot of young recruits would slap their upper thigh and draw their finger, showing that they could draw and shoot an assailant faster than he could close 21 feet. (I was not a firearms insructor, I was DT, but we trained this, too)
So we used to square off at 21 feet and do it again. I'd rush them and just run over them as they were saying “bang bang' with their finger.
Then, we'd strap on an unloaded training weapon on their gun belt and I'd stand at THIRTY feet and do it again. The extra distance would give them so much confidence they'd start to look like Wyatt Earp ready for a TV gunfight.
They would be expecting to be as fast with a weapon as they were with their finger (young rookies are SO damn cute). In that first half second, their fingers desperately trying to break holster, they'd realize “OH #####!” I'd just smash into them with a full head of steam and mangle them.

We were taught to shoot to the hips (Center mass pelvic area) and move. And we'd practice over and over. As that video showed, people don't always stop when shot. They do when shot to the hips. Especially with a good load. They can't motor forward anymore. They fall down.

An ordinary citizen who carries is subject to the same dangerous, false impression as to how fast he can access his weapon. They rarely, if EVER, train. And if they do train at a gun range, they rarely, if EVER, train fast access. And even if they do, they make a huge mistake, they don't train in the same clothes they wear when carrying. Clothing has an enormous effect on access to your firearm. (as does your holster) Especially since we all wear different clothing every day. And winters in New England, layers and layers sometime covering your weapon – hell, an assailant could start fifty feet from most folks, stop and scratch his ass, and still get to someone before they could shoot. At indoor gun ranges during the cold winters, what's the first thing people do when they get inside? They take off their coats, gloves and hats.

It's just like Karate. It's all about training on a regular basis. Fast access to survival is what sparring is to Karate. Maybe it will save your life and maybe it won't. But it sure helps a whole bunch.

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:41 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
Thanks for the excellent post, Otto.

Everytime I read of adrenalized assaillants, with or without weapons, keep on coming and 'killing'...after taking 'center mass' hits with bullets up to .45 caliber...I can't help but wonder what real chance a martial artist/Karate practitioner_would really have in stopping such assaillant with empty hands techniques.

See all three parts...

http://www.policeone.com/use-of-force/a ... of-denial/

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:13 am

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
'Four Basic Truths of Violent Assault'; They will happen closer, faster, more suddenly and with more power than most people believe. - Sgt Rory Miller

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:48 pm

Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:44 pm
Posts: 129
Anyone, any of us, can be bushwhacked, taken by surpise, caught off guard or be a victim of not paying attention. It happens.

That being said, I believe we intellectualize too much about the realities of attacks. We do so here in forums, or in our own private moments, or when speaking with each other, especially as we age and gain what we percieve as wisdom. While there is truth in these things, we often overlook that which we have forged. Our Martial Will.

If we are struck from behind, so be it, perhaps we will prevail, perhaps not. But when that attacker comes from the front, be him crazy, be him drugged, be him adrenalized or be him armed, he is not the one with the power, we are. Should I be given one second of time, one of two things will happen. I will attack or I will take stance.

If I take stance I will quietly kiai. Not the ear splitting one of so many cheap movies, not the kiai of breaking, not the kiai of class spirit. It is the silent kiai that none hears but myself. It is my “okay” kiai. It is mine and mine alone. In this one tenth of a second I have accomplished three things.

First, regardless of my physical state - I have now just slept a full night's sleep, awoken, meditated, warmed up and amped up.

Second – I have said goodbye to my parents, my children, my family, my friends and my dog.

Third, I no longer care one iota for my enemy. People only care about an enemy when they worry what he is about to do. I am not a worrier, I am a warrior. I know exactly what my enemy is about to do. He is about to die.

Should I attack instead of take stance he will die quicker. It is a head on collision he cannot possibly survive. It has been forged from that very first day I bowed into class, through the last. The hours are now uncountable. Unless he has forged the same, his intentions are meaningless. Crazy or not, he has just put his tongue in a light socket.

I am not a wallflower. I did not grow up on Sunnybrook farm. I have seen violence and I have seen death. We all have. We have all sacrificed and we have all forged our Martial Will. Good for us, not so good for him.

Hell hath no fury like the will of a hardened Karate man. As they say, “Everybody's gotta be doing something when they die. If he wants to be screwing with one of us, so be it.”

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:32 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
Good post Otto

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:23 am

Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:06 am
Posts: 1735
Location: USA
Beautiful.

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:53 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/31/ch ... rida-home/

Quote:
There seems to be a lot of shootings here in Florida that when the home owner goes to answer the door they get shot as the door opens. Been trying to thank of solution for this. The one before this one. They shot the owner twice as the door opened and then started shooting others in the house. Then took handbags and some money and left. Really bother me to thank that you can't answer your door any more.

I thought Fla was a safe place to live

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 1:05 am

Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:06 am
Posts: 1735
Location: USA
More reasons to be thankful for where I live. Noted. In Florida, look before you open.

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:07 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
One wonders why Fla has become so dangerous given of the liberal Gun laws...it looks like the criminals don't fear the guns anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: "The 21 foot rule"Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 4:15 pm

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 1:01 am
Posts: 29541
Here is something from Mas Ayoob
Quote:
You're absolutely correct that firing a gun at a human being is an act of deadly force.

"Shoot to wound" implies that by your own lights, he didn't need killing, yet you did something to him that could have killed him. (Lots of folks have hemorrhaged to death from leg shots.) That's pretty much the same as admitting that, if he died, you used more force than even you thought was warranted.

"Shoot to kill" implies that your purpose is ending his life and taking him away from those who loved him. It smacks of malice. Malice is a key ingredient in a Murder charge.

This is why we teach "Shoot to stop." Political correctness has nothing to do with it. It goes to the heart of the matter: WHY YOU SHOT THIS MAN. You shot him to STOP him from doing horrible things to you or other people, things that would result in their death or crippling injury. THAT is a LAWFUL purpose. Hence, we shoot to stop.

You can, for example, justify an intentional shot to the pelvis if you can show that you knew most MDs say a broken pelvis will usually cause a man to fall within a step or so.

He was charging you with that baseball bat you mentioned, and you knew that if you could inflict a wound that caused him to fall within a step, you could STOP him more effectively than with a bullet through the heart that could leave him up and running and clubbing people to death for more than ten seconds.

You weren't "firing to wound," because the pelvic area is filled with large-bore arteries that can cause death by exsanguination very quickly when pierced, for one thing.

You were shooting to stop. But, because fewer gunshot wounds to the pelvic area cause death than gunshot wounds to the heart, you obviously weren't shooting to kill, either.

We aim for center chest against a violent offender who is armed with a gun because, as a general rule, it neutralizes his ability to effectively shoot us or others sooner than anything else: given the predictable degradation of our own marksmanship under stress, it gives the highest hit probability.

The pelvic shot would take away his mobility to stab or club us with a contact weapon, or take our own gun away with his bare hands and shoot us with it, but would not deny him the ability to fire his own gun effectively once he fell.

The purpose, again, was not to kill him OR to merely "wound" him, but to STOP him, and the center chest aim is supported with great strength by a long history of police and armed citizen training.

Jim, I hope you find this of help.

best,
Mas

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