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 Post subject: The aftermath
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:08 pm 
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This by Mas Ayoob
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This time last week I was in court in Arizona to speak for an armed citizen who had to shoot and wound two of three people who attacked him. He followed the "Don't speak to the police" advice, and has been under the Sword of Damocles ever since. (The jury deadlocked.)

It has been a very long nightmare for him. Many who are familiar with the case believe that if he had just said a very few things at the scene, it probably would have been ruled justifiable shortly after it took place.

I personally recommend BRIEFLY establishing four things at the scene, and then deferring detailed questioning until after you've consulted with legal counsel.

1. THIS MAN ATTACKED ME. Establish from the beginning that the other guy was the perp and you were the intended victim.

2. I WILL SIGN THE COMPLAINT. Confirmation that you are the victim/complainant, and the man who forced you to shoot him was the perpetrator.

3. POINT OUT THE EVIDENCE. Evidence is perishable, and if the investigators don't know where it is,or even that it exists, the evidence that would prove your innocence may disappear.

4. POINT OUT THE WITNESSES. People are sometimes reluctant to "get involved." Those who saw what happened and can confirm your account of a justifiable shooting may disappear if you don't get the investigators talking to them immediately.

5. YOU WILL HAVE MY FULL COOPERATION AFTER I HAVE SPOKEN WITH COUNSEL. The defender who has just gone through a near death experience will very likely have altered perceptions, and is not prepared to sort out the details.

Police experts in officer-involved shootings, and psychologists alike, recommend a period of time for the shooter to settle down before there is any detailed questioning.

best,
Mas

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:53 pm 
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That advice hasn't changed since the publication of In the Gravest Extreme, all those years ago. Likely with good reason. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2011 5:13 am 
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True Jason.

However, when training with Mas...he warned about 'logorrhea' where the mouth just keeps on flapping without one realizing it. And that it is more apt to keep on flapping once beginning to talk to the police... and with lots of nonsense being spewed out.

I have seen this happen in my investigations when people involved in fatal accidents have 'talked' themselves into a vehicular homicide charge just as the police arrived.

Think about it...you get involved in a terrible auto accident...where someone is killed or badly injuried...and as you sit there 'in emotional pieces' if not physical as well...you come under police interrogation...

Just one step away from a 'wrongful death' police charge, whether you remain silent or cooperate in full.

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 4:12 am 
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I absolutely agree that fear of the aftermath can cause fatal hesitation.

I think the best way to deal with it is by training the practitioner in what to expect in that aftermath, and how to handle it. The person who is confident in their ability to cope with what follows, will be more confident in following their training and making the right decision, and acting immediately, when force does have to be used.

Best,
Mas

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
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I absolutely agree that fear of the aftermath can cause fatal hesitation.

I think the best way to deal with it is by training the practitioner in what to expect in that aftermath, and how to handle it. The person who is confident in their ability to cope with what follows, will be more confident in following their training and making the right decision, and acting immediately, when force does have to be used.

Best,
Mas


Been there, done that. Unfortunately, I learned of the potential aftermath BEFORE I trained with Mas... which meant that I also ended up with the (almost fatal) hesitation BEFORE I heard it from Mas. Hearing him talk about what to expect in the aftermath and hearing him explain the fatal hesitation AND hearing him discuss how to get past the problem with the fatal hesitation all helped me enormously.


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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 8:00 pm 
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I remember you and I comparing notes of the training at LFI with Mas and John Farnam.

And what you write here should go a long way [for some people and then again for some people NOT] in getting into the proper mindset through 'education' ...the kind you talk of.

We have seen countless examples of some posters objecting to some of our educational discussions fearing it might cause them to 'hesitate' ...wanting us to believe that ...without those discussions...they would not hesitate :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 12:35 pm 
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We've all had our own personal delusions to deal with at times...

The one thing I would hope folks think about is that the "fatal hesitation" might not seem like a hesitation at all. It could be a fraction of a second, but that's all the time it takes to end up dead (or nearly dead).

The lesson is: Think about it NOW, while you have the luxury of time to contemplate and think... THEN, make up your mind NOW exactly what you will do, how you will act/react, and what you need to put in place for your contengency plans... put those contengency plans in place. If the time ever comes that your action/reaction is needed, do exactly what you've decided (and hopefully trained) without ANY hesitation at all. Survive.


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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Panther
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We've all had our own personal delusions to deal with at times...


...and come to grips with 'denial' as John Farnam would put it.

Denial being the most ruthless killer of them all.

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Panther
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The one thing I would hope folks think about is that the "fatal hesitation" might not seem like a hesitation at all. It could be a fraction of a second, but that's all the time it takes to end up dead (or nearly dead).


An uncomfortable thought. Many feel that if the live a low key lifestyle, avoiding the type of people and places that might bring the hesitation conundrum...they will never have to find out about their 'response action' timing...

...another simple form of denial.

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 Post subject: Ars Gratia Artis!
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Interesting quip by ...

J. Farnam
Quote:
Friend and colleague, Dr Dave Kahn, puts it well:

"'Ars Gratia Artis' encapsulates it. It's what separates strategy from tactics.

'Strategy' is a behavioral outline, a blueprint consisting of general rules and fundamental goals. Agencies and groups work with strategy, necessarily via consensus (or autocracy) that drives thoughts, that drive actions.

Innovation and intellectual advance are not on their agenda, because constitutionally, they can't be.

'Tactics,' as colleague Massad Ayoob correctly defines them, comprise applying common sense, with a knowledge of relevant disciplines, to personal security issues, as they present themselves.

Only individuals can use tactics. And tactics, though shaped by basic principles (strategy), can only be applied idiosyncratically. That is, tailored to the particular challenge at hand, and the totality of circumstances that define it.

Individuals have ideas! Individuals devise solutions and innovate new approaches that sometimes represent improvements.

Our world occasionally furnishes us with personal security challenges. We agree collectively on the outline of our ultimate goals and general methods. Each of us takes this outline and, on the spot, devises a specific methodology, a particular way through the problem.

The smart among us propose and innovate. They're inspired! The balance of us dispose and imitate. When it works well, and often, we adopt it!

We all do it, despite inherent risks, for the love of the doing, for being personally associated with positive, forward progress.

Ars Gratia Artis! Loosely translated: "Skill defines the artist"

It's the way, and the only way, our Art has advanced, since before history was recorded."

/John

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Many feel that if the live a low key lifestyle, avoiding the type of people and places that might bring the hesitation conundrum...they will never have to find out about their 'response action' timing...

...another simple form of denial.


You know Sensei... I have never gone "looking" for any trouble. Riding on the "T", Parking lot of a BurgerKing, A show in the Theatre District (twice :roll: ), walking to my car after classes, living in a place in the city (more than twice :roll: ), other times... I was just living my life. (OK, I've intentionally not mentioned working security to pick up some extra $$ for a few years there... that can be putting yourself into a situation, so I'm not counting that...) Regardless, I've tried to live a pretty darn low-key life. Maybe I'm just trouble-prone, but when I think back on it, most (not all, but most) of the times have been because I saw something that was wrong and stepped in to stop it and make it "right". I was told when I was a kid that I had a "fairness button and the world isn't fair". I decided then that may be true, but I was going to do my best to make it as fair as possible where I was. (Some will wonder how that reconciles with some of the things I say, but I'm not into making everything "equal", just "fair". There's a difference.)
:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 5:21 am 
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Right on, my friend.

The 'theatre district incidents' as well as all the rest...might be useful as 'teaching aids' here as well...feel free to write/not write.

Always trying to point out how reality and fantasy differ...

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 4:28 am 
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Mob Violence
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Interesting fact on criminal violence: While guns and blades occupy the stunted imaginations of politicians and media alike, the greatest number of maiming injuries inflicted, world-wide, are imposed by the shod foot, usually striking the head of a victim already on the ground.

Countless have suffered life-altering brain injuries from this single source, many more than have ever suffered a gunshot wound.

As Operators, we thus need to be aware that the most pernicious threat isn't always represented by "armed" VCAs, but rather small groups of miscreants who, having brought down their quarry, will mercilessly lay boots to him.

No glamorous weapons are required, just violent contagion among the mob and the protection of anonymity.

Under such circumstances, we need to remind ourselves to stay in motion and on our feet.

Generations of the world's youth have been immersed in "Identity Politics," shamelessly taught that violence directed at those outside their "Identity " is not only excusable, but is openly encouraged by unblushing politicians who hunger to see those who don't vote for them raped, maimed, robbed, and murdered.

Even America is not immune. Here, unemployed actors openly advocate on behalf of convicted murderers of police officers!

The result is a new wave of amoral, youthful, casual murderers, eager to " punish" all who fall outside their political identity, cheered-on by Washington and Hollywood alike.

The stage is set for some exciting world history! Once again, there is no "justice" aside from what is created by the Righteous, on the spot!
/John Farnam

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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:11 pm 
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Careful Van...........the NPA (national podietrists association) could call for "Shoe control" in the country.... :roll: 8O :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: The aftermath
PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 3:07 pm 
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I'm counting on it, Steve :wink:

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