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 Post subject: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:18 pm 
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two cases of law-abiding citizens harrassed by ignorant cops.
yeah, I know a lot of LEOs read these pages. I'd like to hear some defenses of the ignorance in these stories.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stoss ... rrying-gun

Quote:
On a mild February afternoon, Fiorino, 25, decided to walk to an AutoZone on Frankford Avenue in Northeast Philly with the .40-caliber Glock he legally owns holstered in plain view on his left hip. His stroll ended when someone called out from behind: "Yo, Junior, what are you doing?"

Fiorino wheeled and saw Sgt. Michael Dougherty aiming a handgun at him.

What happened next would be hard to believe, except that Fiorino audio-recorded all of it: a tense, profanity-laced, 40-minute encounter with cops who told him that what he was doing - openly carrying a gun on the city's streets - was against the law.

"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty asked, according to the YouTube clip.

"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino said. "It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."

Fiorino was right. It was perfectly legal to carry the gun. But that didn't matter to the cop:

Fiorino offered to show Dougherty his driver's and firearms licenses. The cop told him to get on his knees.

"Excuse me?" Fiorino said.

"Get down on your knees. Just obey what I'm saying," Dougherty said.

"Sir," Fiorino replied, "I'm more than happy to stand here -"

"If you make a move, I'm going to f------ shoot you," Dougherty snapped. "I'm telling you right now, you make a move, and you're going down!"

"Is this necessary?" Fiorino said.

It went on like that for a little while, until other officers responded to Dougherty's calls for backup.

Fiorino was forced to the ground and shouted at as he tried to explain that he had a firearms license and was legally allowed to openly carry his weapon.

"You f------ come here looking for f------ problems? Where do you live?" yelled one officer.

"I'm sorry, gentlemen," Fiorino said. "If I'm under arrest, I have nothing left to say."

"F------ a------, shut the f--- up!" the cop hollered.

The cops discovered his recorder as they searched his pockets, and unleashed another string of expletives.

Fiorino said he sat handcuffed in a police wagon while the officers made numerous phone calls to supervisors, trying to find out if they could lock him up.

When they learned that they were in the wrong, they let him go.

But only temporarily. Fiorino posted the audio recordings on youtube, and now they are harassing him again:

A new investigation was launched, and last month the District Attorney's Office decided to charge Fiorino with reckless endangerment and disorderly conduct because, a spokeswoman said, he refused to cooperate with police... He's scheduled for trial in July.

For legally carrying...


and another...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJVpCMyM ... re=related

PS, someone should add the youtube tag feature to the board.


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 10:32 am 
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Location: Massachusetts
This is only getting worse...

It was just ruled in Indiana that if an armed group of thugs illegally kicks in your door, assaults you, steals your possessions, kills your family pets and rapes your wife & daughter... IF they have badges, you are forbidden from resisting or defending yourself and your family... YOU are considered to be "in the wrong" and having commited an "illegal act" if you resist such illegal thugs (who just so happen to have a government issued badge).

In 1930s Germany, they passed "laws" and got legal/judicial "rulings" saying that everything they were doing was perfectly correct too. Many of THOSE laws and rulings said basically the same thing.

If a person knows that something is "wrong" even if "government" says it is "right"... if a person knows that something is "right" even if "government" says it is "wrong"... Then that person should follow the truth and ignore the pronouncements of psuedo-dieties in black robes telling them that "black is white" and "dark is light"!

Fair warning: I am glad that I don't live in Indiana, BUT I firmly believe this will be coming to a State near you in the not-too-distant future. When that happens, I WILL defend my family from armed thugs... we practice and we believe that shooting is just like real estate... location, location, location.

:twisted: :evilbat:


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 2:08 pm 
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The trouble with open carry is foreseen and unforeseen reactions of the general public.

A person, who carries openly legally in public places, will create worry and fears in the general public…something to be expected. The police will be flooded with calls of 'man with gun' and forced to respond over and over.

This is not to condone acts of police misconduct, but one wonders about the sound judgment of someone who knew or should have known that open carry in a particular State not used to such a thing, was bound to become disruptive.

Panther, do you have a link to that Indiana case? Troubling to say the least. What were the facts of the case?

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2011 3:19 pm 
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http://frontpagemag.com/2011/05/18/the- ... amendment/


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:06 am 
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Thanks Kevin.
I guess in comparison Mass is not as bad as Indiana.

What's this country coming to...I wonder.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 10:32 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
The trouble with open carry is foreseen and unforeseen reactions of the general public.

A person, who carries openly legally in public places, will create worry and fears in the general public…something to be expected. The police will be flooded with calls of 'man with gun' and forced to respond over and over.

This is not to condone acts of police misconduct, but one wonders about the sound judgment of someone who knew or should have known that open carry in a particular State not used to such a thing, was bound to become disruptive.


So? Here's the issue/problem... This has become a nation of babies. People have stopped defending themselves and claim that we're "more civilized". Bull Schit! People have abdicated their responsibility for their (and their loved ones) safety and put all of their trust in "government" and "police" to protect them. Bull Schit! "Police" can't, won't and aren't legally required to "protect" you. We have lost or are losing all of our inalienable Rights. I have the RIGHT to defend myself using the best means necessary. I do NOT have the Right to initiate violence against someone else without just cause. I also have the RIGHT to travel freely using the best means necessary.

SO WHAT? If some panty-waist moron "calls the police" about a "man with a gun". SO WHAT! Sure, the police can go and "check it out" to make certain it isn't some crazed bad guy, but the NANO-SECOND they see that it is a private citizen exercising their inalienable Rights... the police should back the eff off!

In PRoMA, people have been brainwashed into fearing anyone with a gun who doesn't have a badge. Case in point... I see NON-police people carrying guns all the time... openly! It just so happens that they are wearing a badge. Everyone assumes that they have somehow been "authorized". Again... Bull Schit! Want a badge? Go buy one! As long as it doesn't say something that tries to identify you as a police officer, you can wear it all day long. There are folks who have "badges" that say "Private Citizen", look all official and everything. I've witnessed people wearing those "badges" (they also wore the right "type" of clothes... all black) and open carried to a number of places. No one said anything and no cops were called. And if that isn't enough, Open Carry is either pretty common or getting to be pretty common in a LOT of States.

Open carry in NH is the norm in many areas. In fact, if you have your PRoMA LTC and hit the border, but do NOT have an LTC for NH, you can open carry there. I know plenty who do so. There are also groups in NH that do community service (not as punishment, as volunteers) while they all Open Carry.

A number of years ago I had work in AZ. I needed to fly out there and work for around a month... I (half-jokingly) said to the client that I hated the fact that I couldn't carry out there because I'd "feel naked" if I wasn't CCW. He said, "No Problem"... When I landed, we got my luggage and when we got in the car he handed me a Para-Ord .45 and said, "You can Open Carry in this State... go ahead." (He also Open Carried...) I walked around for the entire time with that .45 on my hip. Even went to a couple of the local watering holes. No Problems, No Comments, NOTHING... not everyone did it, but it wasn't uncommon either!

Other States fall into the same categories... FL, PA & VA all have Open Carry statutes. VT has NO restrictions on carry Open or Concealed. NH almost got that passed recently... with a veto-proof majority in the house, the bill went to the state senate and... the local NH NRA-ILA rep sabotaged it. Say "thank you" to the biggest Gun-Control organization in the country! And again I say Bull Schit! It is an inalienable Right... As I was told in AZ, "free people don't ask permission to exercise an inalienable Right."


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 12:27 pm 
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Location: Murphy North Carolina
Not sure about Florida allowing open carry, at least in the West Palm Beach area, I grew up here and lived here all my life and have yet to see someone open carry unless they were out in the sticks (when you could find sticks) or at a gun range. At any rate, I don't have a problem with folks protecting themselves using any means necessary, where I have a concern is trusting "everyone" to use commonsense "when" protecting themselves. Knowing when to draw, when to fire is different another story altogether. I can tell you that I wouldn't want an open carry law where there were contentious demonstrations going on. Emotions running high, feelings getting hurt, etc.. I was in LE for over 27 years and spent many a long day at the range and can't tell you how often I saw "trained" professionals misshandle firearms. Simply because someone takes a CCW course doesn't make them adult enough to use them properly. Makes me wonder why, in the "old west" that certain sheriffs made folks turn in their weapons prior to coming into their town. Maybe they understood human nature better than most.

Again, I'm for the right to protect oneself. I carry, not all the time, but I do. Concealed is my preference.


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 3:30 pm 
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I can understand what Panther is getting at and there is much merit to his opinions.

But in the end, and speaking for myself, I would not like the hassles of being reported to the police by the nervous public _ over and over, then be subjected to nervous cops continuously ruining my day.

Example: you carry openly in a state that although allows open carry_ it is not the usual sight people are accustomed to.

People, generally, will look at you with fear and disdain…you won't be allowed in some stores…especially jewelry stores etc., some people will call the cops on you.

So the police responds to 'man with a gun' ….imagine the hassle. OK…so they check you out and let you go.

A few hours later, you are somewhere else shopping or trying to get into a bank building to make a transaction…etc.

The police again gets a call 'Man with a gun' …they don't know if you are the same guy as before, so they again respond…and this gets repeated day after day.

Not for me, thanks but no thanks. Also from my point of view, I want my gun to be a 'surprise' to an assailant…and wearing one openly may make you a first target to neutralize if bad people happen on your group by surprise...even worse if you have family/children with you.

Something else to consider that not too many people know about:

Say you walk into a mall with open carry, or anywhere else where there are many people about…and one person with some pre-existing medical condition…becomes so terrified that she suffers an aggravation of this pre-existing condition…and collapses or suffers a heart attack etc.

You will be civilly liable for negligent infliction of emotional distress and resulting personal injury.

Though your liability section of your home owner's policy, may cover you for defense and indemnity in this situation…you can bet that your policy will be cancelled shortly thereafter…and you will have trouble getting a new one…and even if you do…the cost will be exorbitant.

And there is no guarantee that the police will not file charges against you for disturbing the peace or some other such violation…which for you, even if prevailing in the long run, will cost dearly in defense attorney's fees.

Sometimes the unforeseen hassles we will be subjected to are just not worth it.


Quote:
I can tell you that I wouldn't want an open carry law where there were contentious demonstrations going on. Emotions running high, feelings getting hurt, etc... I was in LE for over 27 years and spent many a long day at the range and can't tell you how often I saw "trained" professionals misshandle firearms. Simply because someone takes a CCW course doesn't make them adult enough to use them properly. Makes me wonder why, in the "old west" that certain sheriffs made folks turn in their weapons prior to coming into their town. Maybe they understood human nature better than most.

Again, I'm for the right to protect oneself. I carry, not all the time, but I do. Concealed is my preference.


I also take this position, Steve. Also to consider is that carrying openly exposes the person to his gun being grabbed in a crowd, especially when emotions suddenly run high before he has a chance to disappear.

And this brings up the issue of 'weapon retention' ….are these open carry people trained or even remotely effective in 'gun retention' / protecting their exposed weapon?

Most won't even be able to defend themselves much less the weapon they carry in plain sight.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 4:42 pm 
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So much to respond to...

I think that your positions Sensei are based on the societal "norms" created especially in places such as PRoMA where there are actually "laws" against brandishing... which means whatever they want it to mean when they bust you.

In places where Open Carry is more common (as it was in AZ when I was there a few years back), no one looked twice when I went to the bank to cash a check, to a jewelry store to purchase a gift for my wife, or anywhere else. I walked past an LEO during that time, have walked past LEOs in NH & VA while open carrying and only got a smile and a "hello".

I admit that my info on FL is second hand... I've never actually been to FL personally. I could be misinformed.

Regardless... My preferred method of carry has always been and always will be concealed. The only times I've open carried have been where it is allowed and I was not licensed for CCW. I am positive that anyone trying to open carry in PRoMA, NY, CT, and NJ, just to name a very few, would find themselves in silver bracelets... if they live at all. I disagree with that, but it's the way things are.

I must also say that I could be wrong (you're the expert not me), but I'm not sure I can be held liable if someone looks at me (whether they see a gun or not) and has a coniption fit (for whatever reason) causing a heart attack or even a fainting spell where they fall, bump their head and subsequently die. It isn't my fault that they've got some mental and/or medical issue.

I've carried concealed to many demonstrations, protests, places and times. I've checked-in my CCW at state courts on more than one occasion. (There isn't any provisions for doing so at Federal courts or facilities... which is BS IMNSHO...) I've talked with, met with, testified in front of a number of state legislative committees (in MA & NH) while CCW without a problem. I had a MA state legislator call me "one of those people" when I testified in front of a committee she was on. She's no longer a MA state legislator, but I still go to the state house sometimes.

We have a number of friends & family who are military, ex-military, LEOs, state and federal agents. Universally we perform better at the range than they do. Van-Sensei can attest that I've had some good training, I practice fairly often (more than just about all of the aforementioned "professionals"), and keep up with training. (Naturally, it helps to have a bit of land where stepping out the back door and practicing is viable... :wink: ) Some of the worst gun handling I've ever witnessed was done by LEOs! I once heard one testify that "I don't know... I just take it out and use it when I need to"... testified!! (Knowing the guy, I didn't doubt it either... )

My point isn't that everyone should open carry... or even that everyone should have a gun. Absolutely not. My point is that we need to return to a time when it wasn't "shocking" to see someone with a firearm. IMNSHO, people carrying firearms is as American as apple pie and baseball... and we need to get back to that. That's my point... well... and the fact that police aren't there to protect everyone 24/7. (I wouldn't want them to be either... by definition that's a "police state"...) I'm for personal responsibility where people are capable of defending themselves and other innocent people. Supposedly "society's" disdain for firearms is because we're becoming "more civilized". In truth (and IMNSHO), it's to get people to a point where someone saying "turn them in Mr. & Mrs. America" doesn't even cause people to raise an eyebrow.

And I completely agree with the fact that open carry simply advertises that one is armed... and that people who carry firearms (open or CCW) need to know good retention techniques. However, LEOs and security people open carry all the time and they rarely have people trying to take their firearms from them. When open carrying one must be cognizant of their surroundings and anyone encroaching on their personal space.


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 8:06 pm 
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I agree with a lot of what you are saying Panther. It would be nice if everyone could be "professional" about it and not overreact on either side. Unfortunately my "legallistic" side says, if it's ok for the normal, smart, common sense folks to carry then the courts will rule that it's also ok for the dumb, psychologically instable, angry, etc. folks to carry as well and once it's on your hip and you're in the mall all bets are off as to what will happen when you grab the last shirt on sale at Penney's 8O .

I'm with Van in choosing the CCW method anyway. I don't wan't anyone to know what's up until I have the upper hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Fri May 20, 2011 11:57 pm 
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Steve Hatfield wrote:
I agree with a lot of what you are saying Panther. It would be nice if everyone could be "professional" about it and not overreact on either side. Unfortunately my "legallistic" side says, if it's ok for the normal, smart, common sense folks to carry then the courts will rule that it's also ok for the dumb, psychologically instable, angry, etc. folks to carry as well and once it's on your hip and you're in the mall all bets are off as to what will happen when you grab the last shirt on sale at Penney's 8O .

I'm with Van in choosing the CCW method anyway. I don't wan't anyone to know what's up until I have the upper hand.


Yes, I also agree with Panther and with Steve writing that
It would be nice if everyone could be "professional" about it and not overreact on either side, but that unfortunately we also have to be extremely concerned about
the unstable trash that surrounds us day in a day out.

Imagine riding in a crowded subway train during rush hour with guns on people's hips. Kids might go for a grab…

Imagine some stumble bum or moron who had a little too much to drink, mad at the world, because he lost his job, or his wife is about to kick him out etc. _ riding right next to your gun.

An open carry gun is an easily available gun to the mentally unstable amongst us.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 12:01 am 
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Rory teaches about the mindset of 'predators' in his book. If they decide to come after you for whatever reason…you are in trouble.

Here is a sobering case of mine_

One terrible case I had was in East Boston….this unarmed security guard. was being used by the store he worked at …to make daily bank deposits without an escort.

Afraid that he might be hurt by thugs…he decided to buy and wear a fake revolver that looked like the real thing to and from the bank hoping the sight of the 'weapon' would be a deterrent.


The hapless guard, one afternoon, is walking with a money bag to the bank when a car full of punks pulls alongside him. Apparently they had been casing his routine for weeks.

One punk sticks a shotgun out the window…." give me the money bag, you nigger" [he was white.]

Another punk in the car "hey…he's got a gun" _ Blaam…shotgun goes off killing the guard instantly.

But for the fake gun…police investigators told me he would not have been harmed.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 2:08 am 
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In Alaska, I've found that people aren't bashful about open carry, even inside city limits, if they're on nature trails. Considering a moose attacked a woman in downtown last week, this really is a no-brainer here.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:25 am 
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I have the legal right to walk down the street wearing my gi, headgear and red Safety Kick, but that ain't happening, either.

I wonder how we would all feel if the heading of a thread read “Ignorant Karate People” instead of "Ignorant Cops". Having waded in both streams, neither particularly warms the cockles of my heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:37 am 
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Panther
Quote:
must also say that I could be wrong (you're the expert not me), but I'm not sure I can be held liable if someone looks at me (whether they see a gun or not) and has a conniption fit (for whatever reason) causing a heart attack or even a fainting spell where they fall, bump their head and subsequently die. It isn't my fault that they've got some mental and/or medical issue.


I know how you feel about this Panther…but think in terms of legal exposure if not of legal liability. We are all aware of frivolous suits in this country _ driven by the imagination of skilled plaintiff attorneys in their ability to draft allegations between the four corners of a complaint.

Even if ultimately one is found not legally liable or the suit is dismissed in a summary judgment action…the defense of the suit will have cost thousands of dollars. And in many cases, though the liability is minimal, insurance carriers settle a case because it is cheaper than trying it.

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