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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:42 am 
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Take this situation for example
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Four heavily armed men walked into a Seattle Starbucks last Wednesday and ... what? Robbed the place? Shot somebody?

No, they ordered beverages. Perhaps lattes with little swirls of whipped cream on top, although that's not specified in The Wall Street Journal story about the event, or incident, or whatever it was.

The men were trying to make a point, that more people should openly wear sidearms in public places. They are part of a movement called "open carry," and they argue that we'll all be safer when we all carry guns.


Now…say an old lady with a pre-existing heart condition, sitting at a table having coffee, sees these heavily armed men coming through the door, gets terribly scared thinking the worst; has a heart attack and dies…

...well we can bet there will be a wrongful death action in the offing.

Basically, liability for the aggravation of a pre-existing condition, can attach along these lines
Quote:
The negligent party may be liable for the resulting harm to another even though a physical condition of the other, which is unforeseeable (i.e., neither known nor should be known) to the negligent party, makes the injury greater than that which the negligent party (as a reasonable person), should have foreseen as a probable result of his or her conduct.

Thus, even though a person incurred greater injuries due to his or her preexisting condition, the negligent party is liable for such injuries. This rule makes negligent tortfeasor liable for the aggravation of pre-existing injuries aggravated by said tortfeasor’s acts or omissions. Such rule applies to tortuous negligence, intentional acts, or strict liability.

In other words, “you take the plaintiff victim as you find him or her.”

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 3:54 am 
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Open carry might also be an invite to a crackhead who thinks he can steal a gun.

With all politically charged issues, guns bring out emotions rather than calm logic and there is a possibility a law abiding citizen with a concealed permit/license could lose a civil suit.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 4:09 am 
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And from a possible criminal exposure
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Kurk Kirby, a Vancouver man facing a charge of displaying a weapon in a manner “that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or warrants alarm,” made his first appearance in Clark County District Court this morning.

Kirby’s case has drawn attention to the issue of the open carry of handguns.

By Laura McVicker
Columbian Staff Reporter

Originally published May 12, 2010 at 9:23 p.m., updated May 12, 2010 at 9:24 p.m.

Kurk Kirby, cited while carrying a handgun in a Vancouver Albertsons grocery store on March 19, made his first appearance Wednesday in Clark County District Court. The hearing was to schedule a trial date, but Kirby, 26, of Vancouver waived his right to a speedy trial.

Judge Kelli Osler set a review hearing for July 19, at which time a trial date will be set.

Kirby, dressed in a sleek tan suit and openly smiling for a TV cameraman and photographer, did not make a statement to the judge.

When approached by a reporter, he declined comment, saying his attorney advised him against speaking to the media.

Kirby is charged with unlawfully carrying a weapon, a gross misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Last month, Kirby’s attorney, Christopher Dumm, entered a not guilty plea on his client’s behalf.

It is legal to carry a firearm openly in the state of Washington, but prosecutors with the Vancouver city attorney’s office filed the charge — which makes it unlawful to display a weapon in a manner “that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or warrants alarm” — based on witness observations.

Witnesses, including two men who have concealed weapons permits, told police Kirby looked like “Wyatt Earp, ready to draw.” Witnesses also said he was “giving everyone the eyeball with his hand on the gun,” according to police reports.

Police reports indicate that officers spotted Kirby outside the store, wearing a skin-tight T-shirt that didn’t cover the large holstered gun. The Springfield Armory XP pistol had a round in its chamber and several more in the magazine snapped into its handle. More cartridges, totaling 35, were in the two magazines.

Initial reports stated Kirby made no menacing statements or gestures to anyone while he was at the strip mall at 5000 E. Fourth Plain Blvd. He simply stood around for 10 or 15 minutes before someone called 911.

But further investigation found witnesses who said they felt Kirby was “going into the draw position,” according to police reports.


A can of worms anyway you look at it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 9:46 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
Panther
Quote:
must also say that I could be wrong (you're the expert not me), but I'm not sure I can be held liable if someone looks at me (whether they see a gun or not) and has a conniption fit (for whatever reason) causing a heart attack or even a fainting spell where they fall, bump their head and subsequently die. It isn't my fault that they've got some mental and/or medical issue.


I know how you feel about this Panther…but think in terms of legal exposure if not of legal liability. We are all aware of frivolous suits in this country _ driven by the imagination of skilled plaintiff attorneys in their ability to draft allegations between the four corners of a complaint.

Even if ultimately one is found not legally liable or the suit is dismissed in a summary judgment action…the defense of the suit will have cost thousands of dollars. And in many cases, though the liability is minimal, insurance carriers settle a case because it is cheaper than trying it.


Can't argue with that...
Knowing attorneys... that doesn't surprise me.
Perhaps Shakespeare had a point. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 3:39 am 
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Kevin,

You might have seen this
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John Pierce, a co-founder of OpenCarry.org said, Philadelphia police have sent a clear message to gun owners that will chill their rights to openly carry.

"Even if it's legal, we can punish you financially and by disruptions in your life," he said.



The February incident wasn't the first time Philadelphia police officers have confronted Fiorino about his unconcealed gun.

Since July, he has been stopped twice and he has had an audio recorder on him each time in case a cop is having a bad day or doesn't understand the law, he said.

His handgun was confiscated once for five months, but neither occasion escalated like the third encounter


Police spokesman Evers said Fiorino appears to be inviting trouble from the law by "surreptitiously" recording his encounters with police.

"If you put everything together, it was more than him walking down the street to go to an auto parts store -- without a jacket in the middle of winter," Evers said.

But Fiorino denies that he was looking for trouble.


It's just not worth it. Don't draw any attention, ever, for any reason....practice to be the invisible man.

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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 10:54 am 
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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/05/23/bloody-mexican-gangs-make-official-uniforms-insignia/

Sometimes the police aren't really the police. This happens in the U.S. and other countries as well, we just don't hear about it here.

But what to do when a judge in Indiana says you can not resist someone with a badge?!?! How do you know they're really the "pol ice"?

Fair warning... try to harm my family and we'll shoot back... and we're trained and better than fair shots. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Ignorant cops
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2011 4:41 am 
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Heh. Yeah, never wanted to live in Indiana, anyway.

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