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 Post subject: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:48 pm 
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The Vagus nerve deals with the important functions of heart contraction and lung constriction which if attacked can lead to serious complications besides just ko's.

The Phrenic nerve when injured can provide the same feeling that one gets when the wind has been knocked out of them.

If the Hypoglossal nerve is damaged the tongue could lose control and sufocation can happen if swallowed.

Death by strangulation will follow if a hematoma in the sheath occurs that ecompasses the internal jugular, carotid and vagus nerve in the neck, if the tear does not heal itself immediatley the hematoma will grow larger with each pulsation of the heart and start pressing against the trachea until it has compressed it enough to stimulate the laryngeal nerves to close off.


http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-vagus-nerve.htm

~~

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-phrenic-nerve.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:51 pm 
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Damage to the phrenic nerve, whether due to trauma in the cervical spine, a surgical accident, problems in the surrounding tissue, or another source of trauma can make breathing difficult or impossible.

Usually, if one phrenic nerve is left in tact, the patient will retain his ability to breathe, though it will be more labored. Irritation of the phrenic nerve may cause a hiccup reflex, in which the diaphragm suddenly contracts.

Irritation may also cause referred pain the tip of the shoulder blade, a symptom known as Kehr’s sign. Kehr’s sign is often a symptom of a ruptured spleen, or an abscess in the diaphragm or surrounding tissues.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 4:55 pm 
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When the vagus nerve is stimulated, the response is often a reduction in heart-rate or breathing.

In some cases, excessive stimulation can cause someone to have what is known as a vaso-vagal response, appearing to fall into a faint or coma because his or her heart rate and blood pressure drop so much.

Selective stimulation of this nerve is also used in some medical treatment; vagus stimulation appears to benefit people who suffer from depression, for example, and it is also sometimes used to treat epilepsy.

Most of the time, you don't notice the actions of the right and left vagus nerves, but you probably would notice if this nerve ceased to function as a result of disease or trauma, because the vagus nerve is one of the many vital nerves which keeps your body in working order.

Without the functions of the vagus nerve, you would find it difficult to speak, breathe, or eat, and your heartbeat would become extremely irregular.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Due to the close proximity of these two nerves[Bill, please chime in if you will]...I find that they can be traumatized easily by the spearing [entry] movement of the forearms across the neck, a move that many prefer to short stop a wild haymaker or club attack 'overhand' descending on top of the head from above.

It also seems that the phrenic nerve could be substantially traumatized by the use of a single shoken strike to the inside of the neck for defensive use.

The vagus nerve, can apparently be traumatized severly by a 90 degree hit, such as a shuto to the outside of the neck.

These I see as 'high percentage' 'stopping shots' in a street fight...however the concern is one of crimnal or civil liability over such targeting.

Bill, what are your views on this?

The kyusho people talk about 'light strikes' to certain dangerous areas...but I have always felt that 'light taps' in a real fight are almost always impossible to execute because of the adrenalized state that fuels the defensive move going to gross motor power.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:30 am 
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In a serious situation, pretty much the entire neck is a good target, along the sides you have the jugular and carotid, vagus and phrenic nerve.

The vagus controls the heart beat and lung constriction_

_ The phrenic controls the diaphragm...trauma is going to seriously mess a person up.

In addition, you have the baroreceptors that monitor blood pressure, I believe this is where the knockout comes from.

When the baroreceptors are struck they cause a drop in blood pressure to the brain, which results in unconciousness.

Yeah, it works
.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:21 am 
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Van.. I'm not Bill, but I believe that the nerve centers you spoke of are exactly the target.. Not to be ever taken lightly!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 12:57 pm 
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People have had success with the cupped hand thumb flat on the hand. Again
experiment on a heavy bag. Whichever way you hold your hand keep it rigid
and hit with the fleshy part of your hand, not the fingers.

I think the Kyusho method of 'lightly striking' doesnt really fit me personally. If I am goingto hit anything I will be hitting with violence of action. Assurring that I assert the authority of my will. ( this approach will meet with sucess regardless of your core attributes) .
Just sayin..... 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:58 pm 
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I agree Steve, those are the targets and with possible serious outcomes.

One of my preferred ways to get there is with a 'spearing action' of my forearms [slightly bent] so that the elbow tip slams those targets pre-emptively such as short stopping an overhand punch or a single handed club attack as the weapon is cocked.

A slashing shuto or deep shoken are also my favorites.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:00 pm 
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Robb, I tend to agree, also because 'light tapping' under the 'cocktail' is very difficult if you are really in a dangerous situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:45 pm 
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"...........so that the elbow tip slams those targets pre-emptively ......."

Aaaaah a man after my own heart ....lol
(where do I get these thoughts hmmmm)

:twisted: 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:35 pm 
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The concept is brought to bear in this dated clip which points to the effectiveness of pre-empting an impending attack.

http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?s ... 1001859429

Only a fool would first block then strike. Yet we ingrain the 'block' and then the strike in all we do. :agrue: go ahead and argue :wink: ...but...but...Van...in a real fight this is what I would do :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:39 am 
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Hello, Van!

Sorry... I've been preoccupied with life lately. ;)

Most of the nerves mentioned cannot directly be accessed unless you're in the O.R.

The phrenic nerve is deep in the chest. It sends signals from the brain stem to the diaphragm, which controls your breathing. You can however slam someone at the diaphragm level and stimulate the nerve plexus in the diaphragm. The vernacular is getting the wind knocked out of you.

The easiest access to a vasovagal response is hitting the carotid sinus. There's one of those on either side of the neck. You can find it by feeling for a pulse. The branching of the carotid artery has both baroreceptors (pressure sensors) and chemoreceptors (CO2 level sensors). Whacking someone at the carotid sinus (the crotch of the bifurcation) sends an indiscriminate signal to the medulla, telling it that the blood pressure is too high or some other crazy message. (Hence the vasovagal or fainting response.)

Most people won't be knocked out by this. There are a few cases written up in medical journals were someone will have a hypersensitive response, and pass out while shaving his neck with an electric razor. But that's the exception and not the rule.

However...

My favorite philosophy is considering these strikes to be like poison on the tip of your spear. If you hit with sound mechanics, then you have something that might work no matter what. If you hit with sound mechanics AND you make someone slightly vasovagal, well now you have something. A good example is one of Rory's entering techniques, which is nothing more than the forward movement of the arm into horse stance before executing the Seisan jump. In kata you rub your right radial bone on the left arm while going forward. In practice you shear that arm across the neck at the level of the carotid sinus. It's a mechanically sound way to enter someone's space, as it likely results in the person being unbalanced. A bit of a vasovagal response can add caffeine to the unbalancing effect.

A very practical technique in the neck area is triggering the gag reflex. This can be accomplished by poking in the suprasternal notch. Supra-sternal means above sternum. The notch is evident. Just take your thumb or finger and push in there, and you'll feel the urge to cough as if something is lodged in your throat. The tissue there is more sensitive to dL/dt than delta L, meaning that to get the maximum effect you want to poke FAST.

I first learned of this technique at camp, where Bruce Siddle was teaching it and used me as his uke. (Bruce's boshiken or thumb strike is special. ;)) I have been playing with the suprasternal notch for years, and now my fingers find it like a laser-guided missile. You can gently put your hand or hands on someone's chest, and then slip in there before they know it. The goal isn't to knock them out, but rather REALLY distract them. While they are gagging, you can go on to your next technique or techniques. A good example... the thrusting fingers forward before doing the crane knee thrust in Seisan. If you are pushing with both hands on the sternum, they may not feel threatened and may resist. But blindfolded I can slip my hands right up in that notch, and they will be leaning into it. Follow with the crane knee technique and whatever else floats your boat. Or if you're a grappler or LEO, you probably want to get on with a grappling technique while the starch is out of their body.

Those are the stupid-simple ones that folks can play with and not hurt people too badly.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:54 am 
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Level of the solar plexus. Hitting here causes the diaphragm to spasm.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:57 am 
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Feeling for the carotid artery and - more specifically - the general location of the carotid sinus.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:02 am 
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Suprasternal notch

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