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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:30 pm 
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I don't think I'll ever forget a demo Jim Hulse did on me. It started with something apropos to this discussion. I wish I could have seen it as well, but from living it, I recall a firm poke to the side of the windpipe (an area that has been described above), but only on one side. The force behind this "strike" in the demonstration was probably only my own forward momentum, but I suppose in a real situation it could have been more. Anyway, it made me instinctively turn my body, which he must then have used to get behind me, grab my skull under the jaw and step backwards, pulling me backwards and down to my butt. From that position he had me pretty well restrained. I could have beat on his legs, I guess (pointless with Jim, for sure). The real problem was not how much leverage or striking ability I could muster from that position, rather that with my own weight pulling down and him pulling upward, it felt like he could literally rip my skull off my neck bones any time he wanted. The pain at the pressure point under the jaw was annoying but not the most important thing going on.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:06 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
The parotid gland
Pretty big gland...No?


It is. It helps with salivation. The jawbone protects most of it. You can however get the edge of it, just behind the ear.

I never took human anatomy so I can't tell you which nerves are also in that same location. But they exist. When I get a chance, I'll do my homework on it.

Van Canna wrote:
I remember you being Bruce's B!@@# at camp...pretty comical.

Where else was he sticking his thumb into bill?

Umm... Am I being set up with a question like that? :lol:

Van Canna wrote:
As to the neck strikes…when I gently contact my slightly bent arm and point of elbow against the entire side of the neck, I get 'stoppage reactions' no matter where it lands as I teach it as a pre-emptive move catching them as they come in so their momentum works against them.

I try to be careful not to hit the wind pipe.

As they say, great minds think alike.

We both train the same choreography. And then when we do what we do, we pick things up without understanding where or how we got it. I learned this technique with my Ridgeback. He's a wonderful, wonderful beast. But he has this annoying habit of compulsively engaging in "flying kisses." Having a large dog leap in the air and kiss you is cool... until he goofs a bit. One day he almost took my two front teeth out. Now I have to do my best to discourage the habit.

I employ this exact same technique, Van. A very large dog is lunging at my face, and I do a shearing motion of the forearm across the side of the neck. When he's in a "repeat" mode on this compulsive behavior, I'll sometimes finish the shearing motion with a circle whereby I'm able to pin him down on the ground so he won't leap again. Understand that Maverick is a beast, and a normal choke collar barely registers on his neck. This isn't about hurting him as much as it is about controlling him with excellent mechanics.

Now if you shear across the carotid, well that's what I mean by "poison on the end of the spear." Maybe you get the effect and maybe you don't. Worst case scenario is you execute a sound technique that mechanically stops someone in their tracks. The neck provides a very long lever arm away from the center of gravity, so it's easier to unbalance someone. The voodoo (carotid strike blackouts) is icing on the cake when it works. But even a small vasovagal response adds caffeine to sound mechanics.


Van Canna wrote:

Also a fainting response can be achieved by digging your thumb and index finger around both sides of the neck at the C. Synus points. Correct?

In general, no. There are rare cases written up in the medical literature. But for the most part, carotid massage is used to lower heart-rate and blood pressure. With most normal people, you can't make them black out with a "digging" motion at the carotid sinuses. A thrusting motion improves the odds. In other words, dL/dt of the tissue in the carotid sinus provides a greater response than delta L (if that makes sense).

Even if you completely block the blood flow in both carotids, you can't make someone black out. The paravertebral arteries also supply the Circle of Willis in the brain, so brain blood flow is still adequate for consciousness. The "blood choke" techniques instead work by crimping the jugular veins, thereby blocking venous return from the brain. No blood out means no blood in.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:49 pm 
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Mike
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I could have beat on his legs, I guess (pointless with Jim, for sure).


I agree, Mike. Jim Holes is a huge 'beast' of a man, said in a complimentary sense, and I am honored that he asked to be my student years back.

He is an assiduous practitioner of both Uechi and Kyushu…with emphasis on every Uechi move being a Kuysho nerve strike. Additionally, he does heavy body conditioning work every day, so he is as tough as a tree trunk.

He has been giving seminars in Europe, including Italy, from where I received a compliment for being Jim Hulse's sensei by an Italian Karate master. He's a true English gentleman.

I have recommended him for 8th Dan next year…and as you might know…he will be testing along with some of his English students and Fedele at his dojo, where I will be on the test board.

The wonderful thing we will see, is that Jim, in addition to his three kata …mandatory for the rank…he will perform Dan Kumite, Seisan Bunkai, and sparring…with every application of Uechi becoming a Kyusho KO. It should be something spectacular. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:11 pm 
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Bill,

Again thank you…very educational indeed.
Quote:
Umm... Am I being set up with a question like that?


No, not at all Bill, it didn't come out right…I meant to really prod you on recollecting where else on the body Bruce would strike with his 'tip of the thumb' to get a reaction.

The 'shearing' across the carotid artery: I agree that it is not necessarily a 'stopping technique' though it might happen …but as you point out, I do the shearing across the neck primarily as an entry move to then follow with a wauke...say with my right arm shearing and encircling the neck…while my left hand 'palms up' against his right arm…making him spin around and take down.

A technique shown to me by Bob Campbell.

So my throat attacks are more of a solid entry with the tip of the bent elbow, though that scares me as I might miss under stress and smash the windpipe, buying all kinds of grief.

Quote:
Even if you completely block the blood flow in both carotids, you can't make someone black out. The paravertebral arteries also supply the Circle of Willis in the brain, so brain blood flow is still adequate for consciousness. The "blood choke" techniques instead work by crimping the jugular veins, thereby blocking venous return from the brain. No blood out means no blood in.


This is a favorite technique I learned while taking Judo/Jujutsu before even starting Uechi.

Later...Tomoyose sensei showed me an easy way to get under someone's arm so I can apply that choke.

Great stuff, Bill…many thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:53 am 
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Van wrote:

No, not at all Bill, it didn't come out right…I meant to really prod you on recollecting where else on the body Bruce would strike with his 'tip of the thumb' to get a reaction.


No worries, Van; I was having fun. I know what you meant. :)

I think you covered the most obvious Siddle-style boshiken techniques. He had others, but Jimmy Malone now teaches almost all of them. There's that special place under the nose that you can trigger by lifting your finger up underneath their nose from behind. Better yet, thumb behind the ear and finger under the nose. That and a command gets results from your average neer-do-well.

Bruce also liked techniques on the upper forearm and thigh near hipbone that we Uechika train for. So we know these without even understanding their value. Sometimes we forget that what we are immune to may not be so for the untrained.

One of my favorites - not taught by Bruce Siddle - amounts to putting the sokuto geri into the femoral crease to get someone to fold over. I learned that one from Mayamiya. As he said, "It's how we cut the Americans down to size." :D I've also learned to appreciate a shuto on the biceps tendon of a haymaker. I never really did "get" my first karate instructor's explanation of the knife-hand "block." Without an easy fit like that, it doesn't make sense. Done with a follow-through, it's a nice setup. In general all joint folds (hip, knee, arm) have these "reflex techniques" that are great at breaking structure. They don't hurt, but they do allow you to get the upper hand once inside. The foot and hand blades are great gross motor weapons for triggering these reflexes. And like the suprasternal notch technique, it's safe so you get lots of practice. And lots of practice means you're likely to pull it off when you need it.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:58 am 
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Van Canna wrote:

Jim [Hulse] is a huge 'beast' of a man, said in a complimentary sense

That's a nice asset to have when it comes to making things work. ;)

Everything I've heard about Jim Hulse is positive.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
I have recommended him for 8th Dan next year…and as you might know…he will be testing along with some of his English students and Fedele at his dojo, where I will be on the test board.

The wonderful thing we will see, is that Jim, in addition to his three kata …mandatory for the rank…he will perform Dan Kumite, Seisan Bunkai, and sparring…with every application of Uechi becoming a Kyusho KO. It should be something spectacular. :)


Yes, I am looking forward to this. Fedele also had the impression that Jim has been studying Fuzhou Suparempi, from a kyusho perspective, and I am hoping to learn some kyusho applications of this kata from him. I've been practicing it for awhile now, made a few modifications myself as necessary for me. No sitting or kneeling, I substitute a sweep and overhand strike that more or less approximates cross-legged sitting move which my toes and ankles will not allow. Since my big toes do not bend far enough, dropping to one knee is also bad, hence the more drastic modification. Also, I practice my kata at the employee gym at my place of work frequently, and the piano playing move ain't happenin'. :lol: Instead, I use a pair of sagurite moves from Tomari Passai, which, if this is a searching move, makes more sense to me because you end up with your hand where your next strike will target instead of 135 degrees away.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:25 pm 
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Good show, Mike. You are a dedicated student and from good 'stock' :D

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