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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Thanks Bill, for the education :)

So the pimp was hit in the carotid synus?

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:47 pm 
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Bill
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A good example... the thrusting fingers forward before doing the crane knee thrust in Seisan.


We see this move performed/explained in many ways...one being nothing more than an interception of an opponent's both hands being thrust at a grab for your neck or lapels...and inserting your own spearing hands in between his arms on the way in, and then 'opening them up'...grabbing them and pulling down and in as the knee strike is performed.

Good luck with that. I have students so strong that as they make the grab, their hands/arms will not move one inch by your 'blocking' before the knee.

A more realistic way is what Gushi sensei teaches: Going straight in, spearing the neck with your fingers and then intercepting the arms, pulling them in and down as the knee rises to strike.

So your way, Bill, is correct as far as I am concerned.

We find that even this manner of performance is dependent on 'getting off first' as one senses the opponent's attack about to begin...as his hands begin to move...your counter should be making contact already...

If not, against a very powerful opponent, your counter strike will not get through to his neck.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:50 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Thanks Bill, for the education :)

So the pimp was hit in the carotid synus?

My pleasure, Van. Your enthusiasm is contagious.

On my godan test I got to spar with Manny Neves. We had a "gentleman's agreement" before the test day 'not to put the judges asleep.' So there was a great deal of respect and trust involved in... well... having a good time when we sparred. We both enjoyed it, and I don't think we disappointed.

One of the things Manny did in my match was hit me square on the carotid sinus with an excellent reverse punch. No worries... I have a big neck. ;) But I distinctly remember my legs shooting out from underneath me. It was sort of like hitting your funny bone (ulnar nerve) only it was a different nerve bundle. This one goes straight to the medulla. There was absolutely nothing unpleasant about it, but I did need to stand back up again. :lol:

While this was an excellent technique on Manny's part, it was also an unusual shot. (I'll stop short of saying "lucky.") Like a batter facing a pitcher in a real game, there are only so many times that you square up and hit a homer. My point is that you can't *depend* on the neural component of *that* technique, but you can certainly give it every opportunity to multiply the force of contact.

The suprasternal notch technique is much more reliable. And the hands have no problem finding it.

Emphasis below is my own...
Van wrote:
A more realistic way is what Gushi sensei teaches: Going straight in, spearing the neck with your fingers and then intercepting the arms, pulling them in and down as the knee rises to strike.

So your way, Bill, is correct as far as I am concerned.

We find that even this manner of performance is dependent on 'getting off first' as one senses the opponent's attack about to begin...as his hands begin to move...your counter should be making contact already...

If not, against a very powerful opponent, your counter strike will not get through to his neck.

Several thoughts...

First, the more jacked up they are, the more likely that path straight up the middle will be open. This IMO is why we spend so much time overtraining linear shots.

Second... the explanation I give for a technique like this is "taking the starch out of your opponent." There are a handful of them that I suggest people do when up close and personal. I learned many of them with an "up close and personal" uke session with Bruce Siddle. ;) You're just looking to have a power "brownout" for a fraction of a second. Anticipating the window of opportunity and knowing what you're going to do next changes the odds in the situation. Maybe not completely, but perhaps enough to tilt the odds in your favor.

FWIW, I believe there's a suprasternal notch technique in the "I know Kung Fu" scene of The Matrix. It's there right in the middle of a sequence. Unless you knew of it, you'd probably miss it. Therein lies an advantage for a LEO. It just looks better than jacking someone in the jaw to get their attention. Certainly there's a lot less paperwork involved "after the fact."

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:30 pm 
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It's also worth noting that the double hiraken technique in the beginning of Seiryu and after the second closed-gate shoken of Sanseiryu has a number of target opportunities. Maybe the eyes, but... I find that the hiraken hands fit like hand-in-glove in the neck above the collar bone and below the jaw. And it's another one of those techniques that seems to take the starch out of your opponent - even if briefly.

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:12 pm 
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Thanks bill, all good points. Of interest to me is the way the pimp in the video clip was sent reeling by the neck shot of the karate guy...and based on what you write...it looks like a carotid synus shot...with the results being hilarious :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:21 pm 
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Bill,

See this article written by Dr Kelly on the same subject in Black Belt magazine:

http://tinyurl.com/44mzf5b

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:38 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Thanks bill, all good points. Of interest to me is the way the pimp in the video clip was sent reeling by the neck shot of the karate guy...and based on what you write...it looks like a carotid synus shot...with the results being hilarious :lol:

I just now got a look at the clip. Yep... it was a carotid sinus shot. And as Jimmy Malone would say, nice "time on contact." Half of the result was about execution. The other half was about the right technique for the right person.

The ones most vulnerable to these shots are actually lean people, because they don't have as much fat or excessive skin covering the nerves in question. That same shot probably won't work against a Sumo, a football lineman, etc. One very important function of (the right amount of) fat is to protect the nerves and body organs beneath it.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:56 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Bill,

See this article written by Dr Kelly on the same subject in Black Belt magazine:

http://tinyurl.com/44mzf5b

Thanks!

This appears to be a dated article, and it's a little on the fantastical side. These days most of the RBSD folks have been-there-done-that on the subject. The key to them isn't the anecdote where you get a perfect result or the student in class who is a "responder." Rather (as you well know) it's about playing the percentages and maximizing the likelihood of a good outcome. Some of this stuff borders on the circus act side, and can be too unreliable to depend on in day-to-day work.

The article is short on a few specifics. For one, the carotid sinus is both baroreceptor and chemoreceptor. Most folks forget that. Most folks think it's about fooling the body into thinking the blood pressure is too high, when in reality you're not going to get that kind of instantaneous response from a step response in pressure in that blood vessel. Again, I liken it to hitting your "funny bone" or ulnar nerve. You're not really using the ulnar nerve in any functional manner. Rather it's a bit like plugging too many appliances in an electric circuit and causing the fuse to blow. That's a crude explanation, but you get the idea. With many nerve points you're using parts of the body to cause responses that aren't within the normal operating ranges.

The explanation of commotio cordis is also a bit lame. And that's yet another example of "dumb" (bad) luck when it happens. It's most likely to happen with adolescent males on the sports field, and the blow has to happen within a 20th of a second interval in the cardiac cycle. You couldn't get it to happen if you tried, and you regret it happening (cardiac arrest) when sheet does happen.

The article also brings up the danger of farting around with these techniques in class. Not really mentioned is the reason for some of these "delayed responses" in some folks. Many folks have plaque accumulated in their carotids from years of eating too much KFC. If you hit that carotid artery in class and a piece of plaque breaks off and causes a stroke, well that's YOUR problem. So in general, it's best not to fool with this stuff. The carotid and paravertebral arteries are responsible for all brain blood flow. Injure the carotid and bad things can happen. Fooling with sick arteries is a bad situation waiting to happen.

The shot in the back of the head/neck doesn't impress me as being rocket science.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:53 am 
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thanks bill, good information. There is so much on this stuff on the web...i.e., this_

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy_fatw ... ion/KO.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
thanks bill, good information. There is so much on this stuff on the web...i.e., this_

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jimmy_fatw ... ion/KO.htm

I was pondering the unusual spelling of one anatomical word. And then I see this on the bottom.

Source: "The Boxer and Wrestler" March 15th 1934

Wow!

This was a nicely-done article. And to the degree they didn't go into a lot of detail, it was just enough information to be correct and informative. In the case of this targeted, sequential striking business vs. reality-based self-defense, sometimes less is more.

We also can assume that the author wasn't influenced by certain contemporary sources which are a little heavy on the whole Chinese medicine paradigm of meridians, chi flow, and cycles of creation and destruction. Mostly it's observations from the sport ring combined with some very basic anatomy and physiology. You could go a long way with that.

The parts of the article I was most intrigued by was the discussion of when a shot to a particular area was more likely to be effective. A recurring theme is being too tired/relaxed. Many of the "owie" techniques I like to teach when up-close-and-personal are about (and I repeat myself) taking the starch out of your opponent. My theory is that this sets your opponent up for a blow that's likely to have maximum effect. Bob Boardman's observations confirm my theory.

Isn't that what kotekitae, ashikitae, and karadakitae are all about? We're not supposed to sit passively and absorb the energy. The right amount of contraction of the forearm at the right instant in time turns an inelastic collision into an elastic one. Translating from physics to layman terms means we reflect rather than absorb the energy. We learn the lesson well with our forearms and legs. With a good (non-abusive) teacher, we also learn the lesson during Sanchin checking. Grappling arts learn it on the mat when practicing their ukemi. It's a nuance of these methods that's picked up by just doing.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:06 pm 
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Thanks, Bill
Quote:
The punch lands on the upper side of the neck under the ear and just below the jaw, where the main external artery divides — one part supplying the brain, the eyes, and ears, and the other part supply the face, tongue, and internal parts.

This blow is reflectory, and sometimes induces a sympathetic action of the vagus nerve, causing a temporary inaction of the heart and breathing organs, thus bringing about senselessness.


So it seems the vagus does get 'activated' by a carotid synus shot?

That would be a 'double whammy'?

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Bill,

I remember working with Bruce Siddle at one of our camps years back as you did. And he had a way with his 'thumb in the throat' :D

He also told me that using our 'shoken' instead of the thumb...would be even more effective.

At times I still have fun with some of my biggest strongest students [ 270 lbs of solid muscles] by having them sit on the floor and ignoring my 'commands' :wink: to stand up.

then I just place both middle fingers in the hollow behind the ears and push in and up while asking them to get up.

As you can imagine they bolt straight up :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Thanks, Bill
Quote:
The punch lands on the upper side of the neck under the ear and just below the jaw, where the main external artery divides — one part supplying the brain, the eyes, and ears, and the other part supply the face, tongue, and internal parts.

This blow is reflectory, and sometimes induces a sympathetic action of the vagus nerve, causing a temporary inaction of the heart and breathing organs, thus bringing about senselessness.


So it seems the vagus does get 'activated' by a carotid synus shot?

That would be a 'double whammy'?


First... the article has an error here. It isn't the "sympathetic" action of the vagus nerve, but rather the parasympathetic action. Sympathetic is fight-and-flight. Parasympathetic is rest, relaxation, and digestion. They are yang and yin, both being parts of the autonomic nervous system. They work in dynamic tension with each other to create the "tone" of our system in any particular context. Taking exactly what I said, it explains why sometimes folks puke after getting injured. (Been there, done that when I separated my shoulder.) Sympathetic overrides parasympathetic, meaning your gastrointestinal tract is shut down for the time being. Digestion is out; fight-and-flight is in. Your breakfast will be disposed of.

That being said... it isn't a "double whammy" at all. Excitation of the vagus - a neural freeway of parasympathetic activity - is indeed the mechanism of action. And it's what's meant by someone becoming "vasovagal." Translated... stimulation of vagus causes a change in the operating status of the vascular system which results in a sudden drop in pressure. That's the slower feeling-faint-and-then-dropping action. The sudden drop per the karate guy hitting the pimp is outside a "normal" response, and is the metaphorical equivalent of blowing a fuse. However the structures involved are the same.

A classic parasympathetic kyusho strike is the stimulation of the gastric reflex. In some kata we see the practitioner punch down at about a 45-degree angle. Yes, you could be hitting the guy you dropped. But if you hit someone in the gut while envisioning putting your fist down and through their anus, you can sometimes get a somewhat delayed and comical response. Other than curing them of constipation, some folks will pass out seconds later. That's classic vasovagal response, vs. a "blown fuse" response as we see with the pimp.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Bill,

I remember working with Bruce Siddle at one of our camps years back as you did. And he had a way with his 'thumb in the throat' :D

My throat remembers. Remember, I was his bitc... er... uke that day. :lol:

That's the suprasternal notch poke (nuki). As explained earlier, it triggers the gag reflex.

Van Canna wrote:

I just place both middle fingers in the hollow behind the ears and push in and up while asking them to get up.


Yes. This is one of the compliance techniques taught by both Bruce Siddle and Jimmy Malone. The chi people call that one of the triple warmer meridian points. Anatomically there are both nerves and the parotid gland in that area. If you're old enough to have had mumps - essentially an inflammation of the parotid gland or glands (they are on both sides) - then the feeling is quite familiar.

I am a big fan of reflex points, as they work even when someone is neurohormonally juiced.

The pain points may not work as well in those extreme situations. They work well with a basically "normal" individual who's not likely to put up much of a fight; they don't work against the crazies. Certainly there are pain points in the kyusho arsenal that do not work against a well-trained Uechika. That's why Uechika do what they do. Anyhow... this is where the experienced LEO learns to read his situation and respond accordingly. That's what they get paid to do. Weekend warriors won't have that same level of understanding.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Nerve strikes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Thanks Bill…what you write is educational and entertaining.
Quote:
But if you hit someone in the gut while envisioning putting your fist down and through their anus, you can sometimes get a somewhat delayed and comical response. Other than curing them of constipation, some folks will pass out seconds later. That's classic vasovagal response, vs. a "blown fuse" response as we see with the pimp.



Ha…now comes to mind the 'double punch' in Kanchiwa Bunkai.


The parotid glandImage

Pretty big gland...No?

I remember you being Bruce's B!@@# at camp...pretty comical.

Where else was he sticking his thumb into bill?

As to the neck strikes…when I gently contact my slightly bent arm and point of elbow against the entire side of the neck, I get 'stoppage reactions' no matter where it lands as I teach it as a pre-emptive move catching them as they come in so their momentum works against them.

I try to be careful not to hit the wind pipe.

It feels like almost a sure stop…no matter where the elbow lands in the throat.

Also a fainting response can be achieved by digging your thumb and index finger around both sides of the neck at the C. Synus points. Correct?

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