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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Unfortunately the officers look a lot like paramedics especially when your drifting in and out of consciousness. That I can attest to from experience. Telling a "paramedic" what happened so he can begin treatment while going through shock etc... seems rather unfair if the "paramedic" is building a case. :( :(

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:09 pm 
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What Bill, Roy and you Leo...is of course all true and scary.

That police should have such a free hand to invade 'medically' doesn't seem right.

i was also 'sent' to get information from seriously injuried people while in a hospital bed...but only after clearing it with the head nurse and making sure they were not under any sedation of some sort.

Yet plaintiff counsel always attacked and successfully challenged the information/statements I was able to obtain 'unfairly' and 'deceptively'...

I would think a good criminal defense attorney can do likewise...but, alas, after much damage was probably done.

Imagine a police officer trying to get information from you while hospitalized and recovering from a heart attack triggered by stress of the defensive event.

Surely there must be some legal parameters here.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2011 10:25 pm 
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Some general information.

http://lawiki.org/index.php?title=Arres ... our_rights

http://www.ccmep.org/2002_articles/Civi ... gation.htm

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:11 pm 
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How do you present yourself after the incident? How do the responding police and investigator(s) perceive you? Are you evasive or combative with them, telling them you won’t answer anything until you talk with a lawyer. Or, are you helpful to the extent your lawyer has advised you to be?

You have consulted a lawyer before the incident, haven’t you? The lawyer I consulted gave me the same advice given by Suarez International, “I’m the victim, he tried to do X to me, his weapon is there and those people over there saw/heard what happened.”

Is that always the perfect answer, probably not, but in my opinion it’s a better answer than “I’m not talking and you can’t make me” while the thug’s friends and family paint a picture of him being the model citizen who was soliciting money to donate to the orphanage in between working at his home based pharmaceutical business.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:14 pm 
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Finally, while you did your best to avoid the issue, they pressed the confrontation and attacked with sufficient force to justify a gun solution.

You shoot one of them, wounding him, and the other runs off. You saw the first man drop his pistol in a clump of ivy and the other man throw his knife on a rooftop as he ran away.

You immediately call 911 and give a very cryptic account of what happened..."there has been a shooting...I'm the victim...send help".

In the meantime, one of the assailants...the one who got away, is also calling. His story is a little different. According to him you called them "dirty Norwegians", and pulled your gun on them and shot his buddy. As far as the police know...they got two calls. One a cryptic call, from someone who seemed to be concealing somet6hing, and another reporting what amounts to a racial hate crime.

They arrive on scene and after controlling the event, ask you what happened. What you do now will have a bearing on the rest of your life.

The guys who advocate saying nothing will not be able to point to the two weapons which were discarded...and which will disappear as soon as the scene is cleared. The police may not even look for them since no one told them they were in existence. No one will tell them you are a good guy who was a victim of an attempted robbery, as the ONLY info paints you as some KKK wannabe.

Sure...you'll have a lawyer...but all of the evidence the police may have collected will no longer be available, and the investigation will not have been an even and equal one, but rather one where you alone are the suspect.

See the point??

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 1:16 pm 
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Is it hard to control your mouth? Yes it is. But no harder than to control your trigger finger, your desire to drink to excess, or to control the vertical displacement of your zipper. As the Nike commercial said....Just Do It.

It, like many other things, can be trained and developed. If you ignore it, it will never be developed.

Think in these terms...you train gun handling and shooting skills to make them reflexive in the most stressful event someone is ever likely to face....and we tend to do fine. The guys who never train...thinking they will "rise to the occasion" usually fail. To say, "I will simply say nothing", is in that same line of thinking is it not?

I agree that saying nothing is a good default, but the default is not always a good idea.

What I have done with success is this. I give a limited statement and them excuse myself from any further questions until my mouthpiece arrives.

Anything I say focuses on what the bad guy(s) have done and not on what I may have done. Something like this -

"Officer. I am glad you are here. Thank God.

I am a good guy. I was minding my own business on my way home when those two guys attacked me.

The one in the blue shirt had a knife. He threw it up there on the roof as he ran away. there should be some blood on it from my arm when I blocked his attempt to stab me.

The guy on the gurney was armed with a pistol. He dropped it right there in that pile of ivy when he fell.

I was terrified. Boy am I glad you guys are here.

Listen...I am still a little shaken up. I want to cooperate with you guys. This has never happened to me (or this hasn't happened in a while). I have heard stories of good guys getting sued for saying too much. My attorney is on his way and as soon as he arrives I will be happy to give a statement with him there. Until then, I think I need to sit down and calm my blood pressure."

At that point things are no longer in your control but you have set the investigation on the proper course, and the truth will be determined instead of being overlooked.




Gabe Suarez

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:25 pm 
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The reality of my very few self-defense situations did not go by the book of Roy. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. It just is what it is.

One thing I did do is make sure I was the first to call police, and the first to give them the information they needed to accost the bad guy. Fortunately for me I have a built-in instinct to "right size" my use of force, and a very healthy respect for fear and self-preservation. In 2 of 3 cases we got the bad guy charged (grand larceny, possession of a concealed weapon, etc.). In no case did I permanently harm the perp.

My personal instincts keep me out of the scenario Roy describes. It is for sure a nightmare. But while my risks are much lower, they are not zero. And I do believe as an instructor that it's my duty to know and to give my students the best available information.

Along those lines... Is the wiser choice always to consider appearances in everything we do? Perceptions can get you a long prison sentence. Especially if you start the day with "the wrong race", I would think it's a good idea to have as squeaky clean an image and background as possible. Imagine the ammunition any potential lawyer would try to dig up on you. Even if you have violated the (sometimes bone-headed) laws of your locality, you want the net of that background to weigh in your favor against any individual who would put you in a life-threatening situation. Laws may be immutable, but juries get the final vote. One set of not-guilty verdicts ends the legal assault.

Seneca quotes wrote:

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
- Roman philosopher, mid-1st century AD

- Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:04 pm 
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Bill,

I hear what you are saying. The idea here is to point the police in the right direction without us becoming grist for the 'legal mill' _

I like to think that by discussions and information as presented here, we would develop an instinct to know when to talk and when to STFU_ depending on the situation and educated foreseeability of 'things to come' …all this without falling prey to 'diarrhea of the mouth' without realizing it…which will be our down fall.

You hurt someone pretty bad and you are still standing with the 'smoking gun' ….more than just bullets are awaiting 'regurgitation' from you.

It is up to you to know what must come out and when _depending on the circumstances. And this is something to be practiced just like a kata…not something taken for granted.

You must say something but not too much…and the right kind of 'something' …

because even if you survive the police 'grilling' from a criminal point of view…the police report will reflect all that you said, and your civil responsibility will be predicated on a preponderance of evidence….say too much of the wrong thing and kiss your life savings goodbye.

And I agree with cultivating good looks out in the world.

Some people ought to go to jail just for the flea infested raggedy clothes they wear.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:58 pm 
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A rote statement is tempting, but my worry is that it would come off as disingenuous and possibly perceived as odd, suggestive that I might have engineered the situation, either on purpose or unintentionally by some degree of paranoia. Being prepared is a good thing, but appearing to be obsessed with self-defense to the point of having practiced all aspects surrounding what should be an unlikely and unexpected event is another. That's just what my intuition tells me. Obviously what you actually say is what they can use against you, so a well-crafted rote statement should be legally safe, but the point is that I really do want to point the police in the right direction, not make myself look odd and thereby give them reason to look ever closer at me.

I pretty much know I couldn't pull off saying nothing. You have to know your limitations. Planning to say nothing is, for me, planning to rise to the occasion. I don't do such a great job of that (saying nothing) in my everyday life, so I'm just guessing I'm not going to pull it off under stress.

So, I think what I need is general, guiding principles, mantras almost, and I'm trying to construct them based on what I'm reading here. Like:
1. Expect not to remember things. It's OK not to remember. Don't try to remember things until the next day.
2. Try to act like a witness, not a participant. Tell the officer what I saw, what he/they did.
3. When asked about what I did, see principle #1. It happened so fast. Emphasize that I'm shaken up and that I've never experienced anything like this before (100% true, no doubt).

How can we improve on these?

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Last edited by mhosea on Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:38 pm 
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Mike,

I agree with what you are saying and I would bet that most of us will do some kind of 'talking' if not _ all of the 'talking'…under the incredible grip of 'social pressure' and vortex of assailing emotions while in police custody.

When I was in the US Infantry, we were drilled in interrogation behavior…'ours' and 'theirs' [the enemy] when taken prisoners.

'name_ rank_ and serial number' was something they tried to ingrain in us 'prisoners of war' …but I don't know if any of the DI really believed this is the way we would comport under extreme pressure/torture by the enemy. Yet they felt that type of 'operant conditioning' ingraining…through such drills…to be militarily important. Not paranoia but preparedness.

I agree that 'rote' is not the way to go…but guiding principles/concepts is the key. This I like
Quote:
So, I think what I need is general, guiding principles, mantras almost, and I'm trying to construct them based on what I'm reading here. Like:

1. Expect not to remember things. It's OK not to remember. Don't try to remember things until the next day.
2. Try to act like a witness, not a participant. Tell the officer what I saw, what he/they did.
3. When asked about what I did, see principle #1. It happened so fast. Emphasize that I'm shaken up and that I've never experienced anything like this before (100% true, no doubt).

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:15 pm 
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We have some excellent comments here by Marcus as follows:
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Enjoying your page , loving the thread on the legal ramifications , excellent work very necessary .

I agree mostly with the conclusions of your thread , though I did think trying to report facts from a witness perspective to be risky , so much potential to say something seemingly to your advantage but for it to be used against you later with danger of contradicting yourself ...... I've talked to police interviewers before.

I have no illusions on how they can get what they want and can make the innocent trip over there own tongue.

A 26 year old was just convicted down here of killing a 53 year old man with a single punch in McDonald's , he got three years for manslaughter .... a week earlier someone got the same sentence for beating a puppy to death with a golf club ..... whats the world coming too ..... Justice and the law are a tricky combination at best.

I believe in keeping your mouth shut if your not sure and probably even if you are but I don't believe it's humanly realistic .

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:20 pm 
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...when you will blab under cognitive dissonance....
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I think you should have a scenario story to stick too a framework in place in case you cannot remain quiet, in as such I mean not a fabricated tale, but a template in what you wish to establish, regardless of the situational details, because the details are what will be used for/against you in court.

What you wish to establish will not change and can be approached and supported without offering any evidence at the time of incident.

Basically establish your position/story, avoid the evidential details unless overwhelmingly in your favor, and in such a case let the evidence speak for itself.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:23 pm 
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[quote]I always tell folks to establish their fear (I had no choice).

Establish their intent (to stop/avoid the threat/survive), and establish there attempted avoidance.

All with little/minimal detail to specifics (unless you can point out evidence witnesses etc that may clearly aid, or the obvious non arguable, trapped in a stairwell etc (leaders to cementing your template not to proving your innocence), then to highlight the stress and shock/any potential medical needs and that they will co-operate further after having a chance to calm there nerves and consult with there legal representation.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Before and during the altercation sending a clear message to any witnesses through your actions is something that can be carefully practiced , seemingly calming defensive gestures/postures clear verbal and non verbal (body language) statements of avoiding escalation.

even techniques that look more accidental/incidental than purposeful should all be considered when training self protection .


These are excellent points. The bulk of my teaching, now along with Gary Khoury...in the Bridgewater dojo...follow this concept of making most of the 'techniques' [of course not all] appear to be incidental.

It goes to witness education, if and when possible...something that needs to be ingrained or we will do what we do by operant conditioning without even realizing what we are doing. This is something that continues to escape most people.

i.e., Mas Ayoob in his LFI training tells of police officers found dead in gunfights with empty shells in their pockets...try to figure out what they did wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:45 pm 
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When training self protection _practicing de-escalation in a proactive manner that has both the real chance of de-escalation and/or sets ourselves as the reasonable man both to witness while maintaining opportunity for practical cover to necessary pre-emption and or counter assault .

Being a good actor is important in scenario training , but remember in a real self protection scenario you need to be playing the avoider the de-escalator_

_ if you cant do that at least defining the boundaries' something as simple as being clear to stay back , this is all useful role-play work that can be combined with the technical skill training of the actual conflict , these skills should complement in strategy and physical application .


The advantage of Uechi Ryu is in our having our hands up, palms out, as in a placating gestures easily recognized by all_ yet it is a formidable defensive 'coiling posture' for a great variety of stopping techniques...including 'spearing action' from seisan across the vagus and phrenic nerves. Something that needs to be practiced over and over as we do against the 'Bob' dummy on the floor.

Just some examples of good training ways.

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