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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:44 am 
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When Karate was King!!! You may know some of these guys... Heck, you might even be on here... :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxxYzrh0QE

I came across this on Youtube yesterday by accident on Jim Prouty's site.. This is when Karate Ka were tough!! One of my favorite people in the World is Teruo Chinen Sensei... He's just a super cool guy.. He loved to sit and practice his English (which was really good) with me every time we would end up around each other, and I loved to sit and listen to him!! Always such a kind and gentle soul!! And great Artist!! There is about 6 parts to this I believe.. They are all worth watching!! Some of these guys (round eyes included) have some great techniques, and all had great intensity!!! Thank you Jim for sharing on your channel!! :P

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Hi Steve,

Thanks for posting this. I agree with you. Karate of the sixties [tournaments] were, in practice, much more than the often debated 'controlled contact rules'...

In fact, many matches felt like real street fights with many KO's and broken bones.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:46 pm 
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I would much rather go against someone that doesn't understand this type of Kumite, or one just versed in the "New International Rules".Than someone that understands it and has done it.... This is the way we trained at Kadena... Yes, the broken bones ******... The fact that I can walk anywhere, anytime doesn't... :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:00 am 
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Agree, Steve...it does get the closest to real street violence.

In the All American at Madison Square Garden, we had to also deal with the threats of a 'beating' down in the locker rooms so we could be shown who the best 'fighter' was on the floor above.

And in a 'karate -ka' _ riot that took place on the floor...all police disappeared out the door very quickly for fear their guns would be taken from them or worse.

The group of us on the floor had to resort to a Roman Leggionaire's " TESTUDO" Infantry formation.

Image
:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:20 am 
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Hahahahaha!!!! I believe it!! :lol: :lol: And actually a good idea! I think in #2 of that series it looked like the same happened there.. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:02 pm 
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Stevie B wrote:
Hahahahaha!!!! I believe it!! :lol: :lol: And actually a good idea! I think in #2 of that series it looked like the same happened there.. :lol:


You mean the riot, Steve?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:57 am 
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Yes... It seemed as if the camera turned to something happening on the floor about half way through.. I'll take a look later on and try to find it again..

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Here you go... Right about 3 mins.. 48 secs there is a scramble in the crowd.. :lol: :lol: Hard to tell whats really happening because of lack of sound, but looks like they started a match without the Refs.. :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ijFbF5S ... re=related

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:49 pm 
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Yes, I see that. There were many such incidents, even to the individual challenges of TKD 'masters' squaring off on the floor in suit and tie :lol:

But the one at Madison Square Garden was a bad one. What was impressive was the sight of Ed Daniels, the 'King Kong' of Karate at 6'7" 290 lbs...Texas police officer...towering over the crowds trying to restore order. :)

No matter what the style...the human condition prevails above all.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:06 am 
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Its good to see the old masters at work like this. But I don't understand why this more closely approximates what happens on "the street" than traditional dojo free fighting does. By that I mean 2 un-padded opponents pulling head and groin shots and controlling bodily contact, fighting without all the interruptions. The goal being committed, effective strikes and kicks (and throws/sweeps) rather than points, the results in the hands of hard fighters gets way closer to what you might see on the street than point fighting, where a strike that requires a microscope to detect is considered contact.

Even full contact (which is usually practiced with gloves and pads) seems a better practice than point fighting as a test of street medal. The toughness it requires to take a hit and deal with the fear of getting hit being chief barometers. Although I still prefer the traditional fighting as it allows one's style to be practiced as purely as it can be. When you see skilled Goju or Uechi fighters in jiyu kumite they don't resemble generic kick boxers. That says something.

Not that point sparring is easy, I am not saying that at all, but it has nothing to do with the street. Unless I missed the point.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Good observations, Neb, and generally I agree with you on the more modern ways of training with padded opponents.

But I still stand by my views that some of the fights of the sixties, under the guise of 'point sparring' or controlled contact, were entirely different than the general perception.

Here is a clip of the famous Mike Stone, fighting fights of the sixties, with no gloves and some supposed rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KQDvTwYeyo

These are the fights that looked real street fights in a sense.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:53 pm 
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From Black belt magazine
Quote:
Loren W. Christensen, a Vietnam veteran, retired police officer, and life-long martial artist. Loren is a guy with a tremendous amount of street experience and one who has lived through the changing martial arts culture in the United States.



Here is what he says in one of his interviews
Quote:
Karate tournaments in the 1960s were rough affairs, hard contact, serious injuries, and ugly racial incidents. The latter being part of the times.

Karate tournaments in the 1960s were rough affairs, hard contact, serious injuries, and ugly racial incidents. The latter being part of the times.

As I mentioned, tournaments in the 1960s were often brutal bloodbaths that sometimes erupted into racial violence, brawls in the crowd, and serious injury.

Read the old karate magazines for accounts of those events.

Tournaments have now evolved to a new place.

Kata competition often looks like a gymnastic floor exercise with a punch here, a cartwheel kick there, and don't forget somersaults. Some people enjoy this and train hard to perfect their forms. That's fine, but they need to keep in mind that it has nothing to do to real fighting.

In sparring competition you might see a few techniques that are explosive, fast and strong, but there are far more “bunny taps,” techniques that would leave a street assailant laughing his head off as he removed the head of the one who used them.

Sadly, bunny taps and sloppy techniques are awarded points, thus leaving the fighter with the false belief that his skill is effective.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:55 pm 
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BB
Quote:
Let’s switch gears. You and Lt .Col. Dave Grossman wrote a book titled On Combat, which I understand is now required reading in places like the U.S. National War College. Among many other things, you discuss what happens to warriors in a fight when their heart rates reach certain levels. Could you comment on that?

LC: We devote many pages to this important subject but in brief, it’s about training correctly for the street.

Over 2,500 years ago General Brasidas of Sparta said, “Fear makes men forget, and skill that cannot fight is useless.”

In a heart-pounding situation, the loss of your fine-motor control and near vision makes it mandatory that you drill on those things that seem simple when you’re calm and collected. In other words, basics.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:57 pm 
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Loren
Quote:
Think of those cold mornings when your fingers aren’t working. That is vasoconstriction caused by the cold, but it can also happen when you’re under adrenaline-induced stress.

Say an assailant is threatening you as he moves into your comfort zone. Your heart accelerates to around 115 beats per minute (bpm) where many people begin to experience a loss of fine-motor control.

Around 145 bpm, the average person begins to lose complex motor control.

When it climbs to around 175 bpm and beyond, the effects of vasoconstriction on your body can become catastrophic.

The blood pumps from your heart through your arteries, but just before entering your capillaries, it constricts.

By the way, the accelerated heart rate you get from cardiovascular training like jogging and fun sparring isn’t the same as a fear- and adrenaline-induced accelerated heart rate.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:59 pm 
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LC
Quote:
At low levels of vasoconstriction, the little capillaries shut down, causing some loss of fine-motor control.

As the vasoconstriction becomes more intense, the blood flow to the complex motor muscles begins to shut down. It’s common to lose your peripheral vision, that is, you get tunnel vision.

The more stressed you become, the narrower the tunnel you’re looking through, so narrow you wont’ be able to see the assailant’s buddies.

You’ll lose depth perception, meaning that the assailant looks closer than he really is, and you’ll lose your near vision, meaning you’ll have trouble seeing close things.

You literally become so scared you can’t see straight.

Above 175bpm, your techniques pretty much deteriorate. You can run but you will probably fall down a lot.

Can you apply fancy hand techniques?

Nope. Do a tornado kick? Not even. Most likely you will just latch onto your assailant and hang on as the two of you bang off walls.

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