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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2011 6:54 pm 
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The Experienced Thug Vs The Wanna Be Tough Guy



Having been in law enforcement for 26 years now, I have seen my share of “unnecessary” bar/street violence in all its forms (usually fueled by alcohol and/or drugs), and I have come to learn that those who are often feared for their brutality (The Experienced Thug) are often easier to talk down without having to resort to physical force than the young university jock who has had too much to drink and who thinks they are invincible (The Wanna Be Tough Guy).

The Experienced Thug understands that violence has several outcomes; possible jail time, severe injury which usually results in a hospital stay and even death. Because of this reality, the truly experienced thug does not usually engage in meaningless violence that is based on the “my dick is bigger than your dick” theory of physical engagement. The experienced thug usually only resorts to violence when it meets their specific needs and on their terms. To the street thug, violence is “intentional” by design. To them, violence is not a game but rather a means to an end, and this is what makes them so dangerous, but in a way also predictable. Often when deescalating a situation with the experienced thug , I found that framing the communication around the fact that the possible or likely outcomes will not be congruent with their needs is often enough to calm the situation; especially if you can make them believe that they are standing down on their terms and not yours.

The wanna be tough guy (WBTG) however, is the polar opposite of the the experienced thug. Usually given their younger age, their sense of entitlement and their lack of understanding specific to the real world outcomes of violence, the WBTG resorts to violence not because it is “intentional” by design, but rather a by product of a alcohol and/or drug induced testosterone dump designed to stoke their inflated “ego”. When the WBTG has made a decision to “go” their is often no talking them down or giving them an opportunity to save face, even if the outcome or end game is not in their favor. They become “cognitively stupid” and this is what make them unpredictable and even dangerous if not controlled immediately. Unlike the experienced thug who will take their lumps and walk away even if they lost the fight, the WBTG, even though they initiated the violence, will often cry “victim” if they loose and turn to the legal system to seek retribution and compensation from their intended target. I have found that communication often was not sufficient in talking these guys down. Communication combined with overwhelming force presence in the form of backup (numbers) was what was needed. Even then however, the WBTG sense of physical superiority often clouded their rational judgment, because they were cognitively stupid, causing them to go physical even when the odds were clearly not in their favor ,even though you were providing them with an out, and this is what makes these beasts dangerous.


Know thy enemy

Darren


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:14 am 
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Thank you, Darren, for this critical snippet of information.

Hope all has been well with you, my friend.

Reading this it seems as though it will be a no win situation if engaging such idiots...and there are plenty of them around as you well know.

But how to deal with the emotional 'high-jacking' of the moment on both the WBTG and the good guy when he feels 'wronged' ? I think this is what most of us struggle with.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:08 am 
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I just finished reading fascinating book by David Courtwright. "Violent Land" Single men and social disorder from the frontier to the inner city. Bold at times and it may shatter some individuals beliefs of "how the West was won". Interestingly enough his research into the past does expose trends in violence occurring today. I will share what I consider relevant statements in my next post.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:08 am 
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I just finished reading a fascinating book by David Courtwright ( Historian). "Violent Land" Single men and social disorder from the frontier to the inner city. Bold at times and it may shatter some individuals beliefs of "how the West was won". Interestingly enough his research into the past does expose trends in violence occurring today. I will share what I consider relevant statements in my next post.

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Last edited by CANDANeh on Sat Nov 05, 2011 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:33 am 
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Thanks for the recommend. I put the book on my to-read list. :D

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Jason Rees wrote:
Thanks for the recommend. I put the book on my to-read list. :D


The book will not provide answers on how to defend ourselves or how to react to violence. However, the author gives us an interesting look in our past with parallels to the emerging 'new' violence of today. Not for the politically correct or those who fear the truth (he writes bluntly IMO). Nice old photo`s that I enjoyed and statistics I also found interesting.
Knowing more of where we came from (one more source to digest...as with any history) can help up paint on a bigger canvas.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:09 am 
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Thanks for another interesting post, Darren.

Very interesting characterizations. I deal with behavioral clusters in my health services research work. Like you, we're engaged in the difficult business of behavior modification. Sometimes it's easy, and sometimes not so much.

As for your WBTG group... I had a sister of a martial arts student (Vicki) who had another name for this genre of male. She called them YDFC. Young, Dumb, and Full of... :roll:

- Bill


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:22 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 10:49 pm
Posts: 3519
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.
Darren Laur wrote:
The Experienced Thug Vs The Wanna Be Tough Guy



Having been in law enforcement for 26 years now, I have seen my share of “unnecessary” bar/street violence in all its forms (usually fueled by alcohol and/or drugs), and I have come to learn that those who are often feared for their brutality (The Experienced Thug) are often easier to talk down without having to resort to physical force than the young university jock who has had too much to drink and who thinks they are invincible (The Wanna Be Tough Guy).

The Experienced Thug understands that violence has several outcomes; possible jail time, severe injury which usually results in a hospital stay and even death. Because of this reality, the truly experienced thug does not usually engage in meaningless violence that is based on the “my dick is bigger than your dick” theory of physical engagement. The experienced thug usually only resorts to violence when it meets their specific needs and on their terms. To the street thug, violence is “intentional” by design. To them, violence is not a game but rather a means to an end, and this is what makes them so dangerous, but in a way also predictable. Often when deescalating a situation with the experienced thug , I found that framing the communication around the fact that the possible or likely outcomes will not be congruent with their needs is often enough to calm the situation; especially if you can make them believe that they are standing down on their terms and not yours.

The wanna be tough guy (WBTG) however, is the polar opposite of the the experienced thug. Usually given their younger age, their sense of entitlement and their lack of understanding specific to the real world outcomes of violence, the WBTG resorts to violence not because it is “intentional” by design, but rather a by product of a alcohol and/or drug induced testosterone dump designed to stoke their inflated “ego”. When the WBTG has made a decision to “go” their is often no talking them down or giving them an opportunity to save face, even if the outcome or end game is not in their favor. They become “cognitively stupid” and this is what make them unpredictable and even dangerous if not controlled immediately. Unlike the experienced thug who will take their lumps and walk away even if they lost the fight, the WBTG, even though they initiated the violence, will often cry “victim” if they loose and turn to the legal system to seek retribution and compensation from their intended target. I have found that communication often was not sufficient in talking these guys down. Communication combined with overwhelming force presence in the form of backup (numbers) was what was needed. Even then however, the WBTG sense of physical superiority often clouded their rational judgment, because they were cognitively stupid, causing them to go physical even when the odds were clearly not in their favor ,even though you were providing them with an out, and this is what makes these beasts dangerous.


Know thy enemy

Darren


So in theory the wannabe tough guy is a tough guy in reality because he is unpridictable and dangerious, and will not walk away.


Sorry, just being a smart ass.

Can i share this on facebook?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
AAAhmed46 wrote:

So in theory the wannabe tough guy is a tough guy in reality because he is unpridictable and dangerious, and will not walk away.

The real question is, dangerous to whom? My bet is on a more emotionally intelligent, better trained, and street savvy personality. Against a Darren, this guy is an accident waiting to happen - to himself.

You have to wonder why Spain loves the bull fight.

- Bill


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