Entering the attack

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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Van Canna » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:22 am

Here's a sudden knife attack by a perp upon a police officer.


http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapons/ ... hing-face/

Some of the comments are interesting.

Back when I was in the Academy they taught us to be mindful of the 21 foot rule. Later during some in-service training they told us to forget about the 21 foot rule and we did a great exercise which illustrated even the slower members of the group were able to run from a dead start further than 21 feet in the time it took the average officer in the group to draw and fire just 1 round.

We all know that one round rarely kills a suspect instantly and even if you get several shots off the momentum of the bad guy can still carry him far enough to drive a knife in you.

The point is there is no "safe" distance. In this case the bad guy was seated in a car about 22 feet away, fell down at least once while running at the officer and I'm sure the officer didn't just stand there and let it happen, and even still the officer got cut.

I say great job to Dombkowski for preventing a more serious injury to himself and great job to the other officers for their quick response to the attack on their brother. Get well soon Brother! That POS dirtbag SOB asked for what he got!


How would we handle such an attack?

Any views on the so called 21 foot rule?
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Jason Rees » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:06 pm

The knife you don't see is the one that'll cut you.
If the knife is all you see, it will cut you.

Rory posted something on his blog very recently about how people don't 'televise' defensive actions, but they will with offensive actions.. unless its' reactive. I think if you train to pull your gun quickly at the sight of someone standing 21 feet away from you with a knife, they won't get two feet towards you. If you brought a knife to a gunfight at the OK Coral, I'm pretty sure you're dead. If you have to think about pulling your gun when you see a threat coming at you with a knife, you're going to get cut.

But that's just my two cents, which probably aren't worth one. :wink:
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Bill Glasheen » Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:33 pm

Interesting video, Van.

Van Canna wrote:
Any views on the so called 21 foot rule?


It's my understanding that the origin of "the 21 foot rule" is The Tueller Drill.

Wikipedia wrote:Sergeant Dennis Tueller, of the Salt Lake City, Utah Police Department wondered how quickly an attacker with a knife could cover 21 feet (6.4 m). So he timed volunteers as they raced to stab the target. He determined that it could be done in 1.5 seconds. These results were first published as an article in SWAT magazine in 1983 and in a police training video by the same title, "How Close is Too Close?"[1]

A defender with a gun has a dilemma. If he shoots too early, he risks being charged with murder. If he waits until the attacker is definitely within striking range so there is no question about motives, he risks injury and even death. The Tueller experiments quantified a "danger zone" where an attacker presented a clear threat.[2]

***

1. Tueller, Dennis (March 1983), "How Close is Too Close?", S.W.A.T. Magazine
2. Ayoob, Massad (October 1991), "Explaining the deadly force decision: the opportunity factor", Shooting Industry


So Sargent Tueller's drill is used - right or wrong - as gospel for those trying to dichtomize the shoot/no-shoot distance. The "21 foot rule" becomes a human construct superimposed on a non-dichotomous scenario, and justified with what little information was out there in the LEO literature. The actual reality is it's better used as a "rule of thumb."

When it comes to defending the perp who got shot, we all know that possession of a lawyer is nine-tenths of the law. His lawyer will use whatever he can to attack the LEO. The Tueller Drill then becomes a double-edged sword in the courtroom.

Van Canna wrote:
How would we handle such an attack?


Other than pisss our pants? :D There but for the grace of God go I.

We've had this discussion before, Van. In a firearms training class I was the only one who defeated the Tueller drill. And you tell me that Jimmy Malone did the same. Nothing is 100 percent. But getting off that charging bull line of force is your best bet for buying more time.


..... Correct approach

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..... Incorrect approach

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Jason wrote:If you brought a knife to a gunfight at the OK Coral, I'm pretty sure you're dead.


This is true. And it's also true that someone may still get cut. And that'll ruin your day.

There's nothing more dangerous than a suicidal attacker. Can you say loco? This guy had no sense of self-preservation.

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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Jason Rees » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:56 am

Bill Glasheen wrote:There's nothing more dangerous than a suicidal attacker. Can you say loco? This guy had no sense of self-preservation.

- Bill


Can't argue that. I'd be interested in knowing if the guy was juiced when that happened.
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Re: Entering the attack

Postby Van Canna » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:20 am

:mrgreen:
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