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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:02 pm 
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And this just in from Marcus, our New Zealand fighter....


>Hi Van, thought I'd chip in my two cents on rank and seniority
>
> I've been pretty outspoken about rank and seniority in the past, I don't think it's necessary to quantify it, I think it should be self evident
> I know organizations have there own criteria, and standards, and its these rewards folks often judge seniority by, and these are valid and valued by the organization.
>
>IMHO should be treasured for who has given them more for than needing validation in receiving them.
>
>It is always about the relationships and the people , when folks miss this they miss the meaning of the rank , its the contribution , the camaraderie , the sharing and the learning over time that makes ones path , and cements ones knowledge .
>
>We all know the peacocks with there striped belts , multiple titles and ranks , who strut and preen and demand attention ...... rank or seniority , perhaps
>
>We all know the humble workers and doers , the long term givers , contributors , teachers ......
>
>we all have a little of both in us .
>
>it's the gestures and time that folks remember, you taught me long ago, it's not what you say but how you make them feel that's important.
>
>Yes you need the skill , But relationship makes you senior , courtesy , respect , camaraderie , the more folks you have a positive relationship with , the more senior you are within that group , you are not senior in technique or rank but in hearts and minds , Otherwise it is just a piece of paper.
>
>Folks choose there groups, and unfortunately this often for some means the groups choose there seniors, some think the relationship goes with the rank not the other way around.
>
>Funakoshi was right; karate begins with courtesy and ends with courtesy.
>
>the disagreements come with politics and organization and egos, if giving learning and sharing and courtesy come first ....... well.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:15 am 
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"What we seek through it all is collective accomplishments"... Never in the history of Uechi Ryu can I see it so seemlessly and completely, humblely, and consisely represented in one sentence!! We all wish inside our hearts to see Uechi Ryu move forward..We are all disheartened since the big split that out ideas of "what was perfect" or "what was correct" became dissemenated into a 100 different pieces or more... Or that the next generation didn't "try as hard".. Ever think maybe our shins became harder with time and practice like they should so it only seems like they aren't as hard yet?!?.. This has been very constructive Vann... It was definately a bold step forward!! I am glad to see the interest in the thread!!! :D :D :D
Bottom line of every thing we do.. Make ourselves, others and Uchi Ryu stronger than ever!!! If this is the true focus, then how can we lose?!?

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:22 am 
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Most excellent, Steve. really what we all should be striving for through humbleness... a most 'sacred' trait as displayed by out beloved master Kanei Uechi. Thank you all for the contributions.

I also think that Marcus sums it up in one sentence
Quote:
It is always about the relationships and the people , when folks miss this they miss the meaning of the rank , its the contribution , the camaraderie , the sharing and the learning over time that makes ones path , and cements ones knowledge.


In fact, Marcus' post reaches down deep into our souls in ways hard to describe a times, and I feel drawn to re-reading it time and again.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:13 am 
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There is something else I had wanted to bring up that most definitely goes to training knowledge, worthwhile exploring.

This comes from findings of exhaustion studies.

Example: Less than 60 seconds of all-out exertion, such as a person might expend in trying to fight and stop combative assailants, can deplete the average person's physical reserves and put his life in peril.

Even TMA practitioners in top condition are not immune to the rapid drain of physical prowess and cognitive faculties resulting from sustained hand-to-hand combat.

This 'sustained combat' is not hard to envision: a sudden assault in confined quarters, such as a rest room, pub, elevator, whatever…can become necessary against a single, exceedingly large and strong opponent intent on killing you, or against multiple assailants as you try to cope and break free.

Most of us in Uechi train hard, condition our limbic weapons hard, and can develop some serious topping techniques.

And so we might think/assume 'sustained combat' does not apply to us as we will end the fight, any fight with a few well executed strikes, and that should suffice…but deep inside we think…will it really suffice the way we assume it to go down?

Will we have enough energy to sustain the fight and cope with the effects of rapid exhaustion?

In one test by a scientific organization, a number of people were instructed to launch a full-force physical attack on a 300-lb. hanging water bag and to attack the bag with as much ferocity as they could muster, selecting their own “assault movements”–punches, kicks, and/or palm, elbow, and knee strikes.

The exerters were to sustain assailing the bag until they no longer had strength to keep going or until they were visibly maxed out (“breathless and struggling to continue”).

PHYSICAL DECLINE. The heart monitors, face masks, and blood tests all confirmed that exerters reached an intense level of energy output during the bag blitz. Heart rates, for example, leaped from an average resting rate of 73 bpm to an average maximum of 179 for the bag beaters.

Their blood lactate levels, reflecting the amount of exertion and affecting muscle function, skyrocketed up to 13 times the normal resting concentration. “It was impressive how committed these people were to going flat out,” It was remarked.


Most dramatic–and alarming–was the speed at which exerters depleted their physical resources. On average, the exerters spent 56 seconds hitting the bag, although some either quit or were called out as thoroughly exhausted after as little as 25 seconds.

The blows they were able to deliver ranged from a low of 73 to a high of 274. The average was 183. The overwhelming majority of hits were fist punches.

Reviewing time-coded video of the action, researchers were able to count second by second the number of times each participant struck the bag. The average person peaked at 15 seconds. After that, the frequency of strikes fell in a sharp and steady decline. “The people started out strong, driving hard with penetrating hits that visibly moved the heavy bag,” …. “But by 30 to 40 seconds, most were significantly weakened.

They were not able to breathe properly, their cadence dropped, their strikes scarcely moved the bag if at all, and they were resorting largely to very weak, slowly paced blows that would have had little impact on a combative assailant.”

In effect… “Delivering a concerted and sustained physical assault…’ they punched themselves out’ ” in a matter of seconds.

Perhaps surprisingly, this seemed true even of the people with a high level of personal fitness and fighting skill.

This explanation was offered: “Fitter people delivered faster and more powerful strikes,” expending greater effort and thus exhausting their presumably greater reserves in “roughly the same time” as those less fit and skilled.

“As exhaustion takes over, cognitive resources tend to diminish,”

“The ability to fully shift attention is inhibited, so even some potentially relevant information tends to get screened out. Ultimately, memory is determined by where the focus of attention was during an event.

The exerters were zeroed in on delivering blows during the bag blitz. Afterward, they typically had little cognitive resources left.”

One way I approach this situation in teaching is to have students attack the 'bob' on the floor or the hanging bag and blitz it in succession until fatigue sets in…then I have them 'defend themselves' while in the performance of an all out Dan Kumite, Kanchiwa/seisan bunkai and 'one point' kumite…while holding their ground.

It is disheartening to realize that all that power and resilience they had is so quickly fading or has already faded.

This type of drill is as sobering as it can be for anyone who really wants to test himself this way.

This “Fear conditioning through training,” apparently “enables simple processing” of threat and danger cues to continue on some level “despite the impact of exhaustion and anxiety.” The ability to respond effectively to such cues, however, would be gravely degraded in an exhausted state.

And this a more compelling reason to 'sharpen' the what-when-how- and whys of street engagements, in all ways possible from a physical and tactical viewpoint…which also goes to the when and whys of having to escalate to a force continuum.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:19 am 
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Exhaustion drills do prove interesting. Even in my old age I like them. One that I have modified was from my swimming lesson days. Our instructor (for bronze medallion test) partnered us off about 20 feet on shore and we were instructed to crawl on hands and knees towards a marker placed knee deep in the water. Your partner was to prevent you from moving by wrestling you. No striking, arm bars, standing, biting or grabbing sensitive areas. Holding above the shoulders not permitted also. The person on the ground could roll, twist, crawl, yell but elbows/knees must remain on ground to go forward. If you rolled towards the marker the marker was moved deeper 8O Five minute drill and I do not recall anyone making the marker. Immediately after the whistle to signal 5 minutes everyone raced to the dock doing the butterfly stroke. Oh yes, no one left the water unless he "knew" you were sweating. We were one awesome swim team and his unique drills taught us never to give up.
Few of us have pools in the dojo so after the "dojo crawl" the sparing immediately begins.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:58 pm 
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I was one of those folks hoping such an exhaustion scenario would take hold. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. I was captain of my cross country team. So I was looking forward to the end of class where the big beasts had exhausted themselves, and I was just getting warmed up.

Witness the way Ali beat Foreman. He allowed the brute to exhaust himself on his body. Then he abused him at will.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Bottom line - what's bad for the goose is bad for the gander. Understanding how to pace yourself and understanding how exhaustion works will help you use it to your gain. Delayed gratification can be a very good thing. ;)

It's also worth noting that getting an early advantage and steering a situation away from physical "redlining" are paths worth seeking out. As my mechanic explained to my son, just because your car has a 9,500 RPM redline doesn't mean you should be going there. There are better things to do with an engine that explore its limits on a regular basis.

- Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Leo, Bill,

Very good points on the 'E-drills' …those drills tell the truth about oneself as to effectiveness in combat.

In my infantry training days …the 'bark' was 'Wars are fought by tired soldiers' …how true.

Something else that causes quick exhaustion, that I have indicated before in my old threads …and something which is also ignored for the most part…is that the hard wired adrenaline dump we will experience in a street fight…the more severe the threat…the stronger the dump will be….is that the rush dies down quickly and exhaustion sets in leaving us vulnerable to counter attack.

Here is an article that points to even more serious complications....

http://changingminds.org/techniques/con ... uggest.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 4:25 pm 
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And this from Blue sheepdog...
Quote:
Hit the gym – A good rule of thumb is for every mile you can run (not jog) you are good for one minute in a fight. You can run two miles? Well, you’re good for two minutes.


How much cardio do we really do?

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:20 am 
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List-ka,

Haisai Van, Bill, Marcus,and all, sorry about being away from the forum as my Counter-Terrorism work has been unfortunately, a bit hectic.

Some very well thought out replies to Van's questions. Leo used the example of my old friend, Andre, who I have not seen in too many years, and his attitude towards others.

Personally, despite having ''senior'' grades in 2 Okinawan styles- Okinawan Goju Ryu and Kyudokan Shorin Ryu and have the hanko and signature on menjo tucked away in some closet somewhere wrapped in a tube. It is not that I am not proud of my accomplishments, but as a ''senior'' it is no longer my job to post my menjo on a wall of the dojo but it is my ''ON'' to make sure that my Yudansha are better than me. (Shu ha ri).

One does not have to have numerous awards, rankings, photos with masters, to prove ''their depth of knowledge'' and ''seniority'' of others in the region as this gentleman does in my neighborhood:

http://tinyurl.com/7a9e2jf

One who is not knowledgeable of martial arts and reads the article would think that this gentleman must have trained very hard throughout the years to accomplish the accolades that are listed in the paper.

http://youtu.be/Y0JtqnyoxDc

One of yudansha, was a temporary worker at the Post Office that he is a letter carrier while he was in college (94-98) and heard him speak about going to tournaments, etc. Then, and even the recent past when Jay ran into him, he was respectfully invited to his dojo to train/ or watch our yudasha class. He has yet visited and I believe that by visiting would shake him out of his own comfort area.

It was previously pointed out, and I agree, that seniority is earned on the dojo floor, the harder a teacher trains, and the example that you set while teaching and being able to make the performance of kihon techniques difficult and challenging no matter the rank, rather than the boorish 5 slow, 5 strong kihon practice that I have seen in many dojo; speaks loudly not only for one's teaching ability but it cements the teacher's level of seniority within the dojo and within an organization, or within a particular style-association not withstanding.

I recall a story about a ken jutsu teacher that I read about many years ago: I am paraphrasing " One admires the sharp katana, the beauty of the water marks on the blade, its heft-so perfect in your hands, the furniture (handle-scabbard,etc), the lavish tsuba that has been matched with the blade is pure perfection. Its cut is perfect and during its use in kata it feels as if it dances in your hands. But we fail terribly to remember the toil, the molding of the steal, the hammer strikes next to the hot fire, the spreading of the clay to make sure that the blade tempers probably and in turn causing the beautiful water marks on the blade later. The timing to drop the heated blade at the right time into the water to cool it. Then one must spend hours upon hours to polish and sharpen the blade before it is even considered 'finished and he signs his name to the blade' which will lie hidden under the handle of the blade unless the handle is removed for some purpose." Of the two- the practitioner or the sword maker- who has the "depth of knowledge''?

>>> Tsuba or hand guard on blade
Image

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Last edited by Kuma-de on Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:07 am 
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Van Canna wrote:
How much cardio do we really do?

Being in shape is always a good thing. That comes natural to me anyway. I've never needed to do cardio, and in fact stopped after my days in track. Kicking exercises is all I've needed to get folks in class to the point of wanting to yak. ;) Personally I've instead focused on my anaerobic ability - the source of explosive power.

One thing I learned in my days of 3-on-1 randori is not to turn the battle into an endurance pissing match if you can at all help it. God knows I have been there, and had the gang wipe the floor with me. If you go at the three toe-to-toe, blow-to-blow, you will lose. As Einstein once said, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result. This is where being clever and "fighting dirty" is not only wise, but perfectly legal. Facing a preponderance of force gives you a lot more legal latitude than your average monkey dance duel.

Plus... it's difficult to describe if you've never been there. But facing that much force is one of the more motivating experiences in life. If that doesn't bring out your evil twin, well nothing will. Getting people in each-other's way, attacking structure, being direct and brutal, etc... It's all now on the menu.

- Bill


Last edited by Bill Glasheen on Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 2:30 am 
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Jim,

Thank you for the excellent post,lots to ponder. BTW the last photo link could not be opened, try as I did all the way around.

Bill,

Could not agree more.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:50 am 
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Before I post an excellent response here by Marcus...I have just received…

One caveat: You may be big/strong/tough and in reasonable good shape...but if you want to try out the 'exhaustion' drill, to see if you can handle that kind of stress under a real street fight against bigger, heavier, or multiple opponents...don't just go to the dojo and attack the bag and or the 'Bob' striking dummy, full power to exhaustion, and then try to perform a kumite, bunkai, or free sparring immediately, especially if you don't normally do aerobics coupled with anaerobic[weight training] on a regular basis at a gym….and …in particular if you are over 40…this is something you need to work your way up to…much the same way I was coached along…when competing in rowing races…and later as a soccer player.

I am very careful in class who I allow to do this drill, based on age, weight I see, medical history and general conditioning. The more weight you carry…the more careful you need to be.

In my work, one of my specialties was to investigate heart attacks on the job, many of them fatal due to some underlying condition, many times unknown, like [silent heart disease]…

…where some sort of physical or emotional trigger occurred, resulting in the event and possibly exposes the teacher to liability and heart ache.

Serious business and a word to the wise.

Do we need to 'know' if we are capable of this if thinking of street confrontations? Yes, we do. If we don't know…then we must re-evaluate our 'fighting strategies' something we may take for granted because of our typical dojo workouts. This goes to 'depth of knowledge' for your own protection, and more important, the protection of your students.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:02 am 
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Marcus is a full contact fighter with considerable experience under his belt…and now a skilled Uechi student.
Quote:
Hi Van thanks for the kind comments, please if you post this on the forums pass my best to Jim Prouty good to see him around.

I couldn't help but see the exhaustion stuff, there's some good information I agree with I thought Id share what I do down here.


It is true that cardio is great , but the fittest man will gas quickly when exerting all out effort , as your article prescribed the fitter will exert more power and fatigue just as quickly as the unfit .

Bill really nailed it when he hinted on anaerobic vs. aerobic.

There are many sports and athletes that rely on conservation of energy, BJJ springs to mind, where superior positioning and knowledge allows
them let there opponent flail and power out, causing them to gas, and then they quickly take the advantage, the Ali Foreman bout is legendary for it.

However I believe it unrealistic to rely on such sporting tactics in the shear panic of a street fight.

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:08 am 
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Quote:
There is a training protocol that can be used to experiment with all these things, because it targets both the aerobic and anaerobic systems
It's called the tabata protocol; I do a more martial flavor version with exercises designed for power and movement in mind.

While no regime is enough in itself any more than one style is, this one comes pretty close if modified with martial arts in mind.

There are a lot of links to it on the web if folks are interested. Plenty of peer research you could dig for that Bill would approve of me thinks.

http://www.tabataprotocol.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Seniority
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 5:16 am 
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Marcus
Quote:
What I believe ...someone should be training for tactically ....is ...burst/recover_

What we are concerned with is:

a) how quickly and deliberately we can get our heart rate under control
b) familiarity with rapid intense bursts of exercise and functioning in such a state of elevated heart rate
c) increasing our capacity for intense work , improving our power and getting more work out(i.e. benefit) in less time


I won't confuse things with lactic acid and human growth hormone and the fat loss benefits but........

It's useful in class to as a pre exhaustion method to quickly get the heart rate up, then you can truly test your skills under pressure.

Folks who haven't done pre-exhaustion before challenging themselves…Don't know what they're missing.


Working with this stuff answers the breathing questions pretty quick as to how one controls heart rate through breathing etc.

Scott Sonon is a great source for this work.

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