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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:34 pm 
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This is a very good read with lots to learn.

http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/openHand.p ... e=openHand

At our dojo we had the famous Pekiti Tirsia Guru...Wes Tasker...run a seminar on what you will read here.

An 'eye opener' for the karate practitioner.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:24 pm 
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Of course with long and intensive training the straight punch (clenching the fist, coordination of wrist, elbow and shoulder) can become “second nature” (that's why most martial artist forget about the technical complexity of the punch), but if real street fights are observed – even with professionally trained fighters in contemporary Mixed Martial Arts events – the accurate straight punches are gone and the wild swing is the one that is typically observed.

To teach beginners straight punches as the self defence tool to rely on in a life threatening situation that might happen the very next day, obviously is not the way to go.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:39 am 
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I was taught a "sucker slap" by a boxer when he helped train my hand work for kick boxing back in the early 80`s...give him credit he tried ;)
To this day it`s one of my favourite set-up/strikes to practice. Certainly not legal in the ring 8O. Donny knows the ring and what is effective on the street. Best way to describe is a hook punch with the palm heel after blading the opponents head towards the incoming palm (think seisan knee strike on a horizontal plane basically). A little "poker" involved in making your attacker over confidant as well. Sense how dirty they are, and be prepared to break rules THEY might not even want to
Check out the man`s fight record/opponents...he has battled hard.

http://www.fightsrec.com/don-johnson-liverpool-n.s.html

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:37 am 
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Quote:
but if real street fights are observed – even with professionally trained fighters in contemporary Mixed Martial Arts events – the accurate straight punches are gone and the wild swing is the one that is typically observed.


Often I have heard that boxers are not effective on the street (real fight). I would assume most boxers know that the rules of the ring are for safety and means of evaluating the ability of the boxer as he performs his sport. Like any artist or athletes many of them have the ability and desire in achieving the end result outside of the rules if need be. Boxers know how to move their arms (entire body actually) not just fist and can generate a lot of striking power in a flail.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:35 pm 
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All good points Leo and I agree.

I have two former boxers in my class and they will punch so hard and fast and from so many directions we are unfamiliar with that is unsettling at times.

And if you put your arms up to 'block' they will attack the arms leaving welts the size of apples if not outright peeling off your skin.

They are also fearless in body slamming and can take lots of punishment...not feeling much themselves under the adrenaline dump.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Never done Pekiti, but I've seen open handed strikes taught in several different context. We use them in the PDR Program, for many of the reasons the article outlines.

That said, everything is true, except when it isn't. The notion that boxers aren't effective in fights can, I think, be overstated. Sometimes, using boxing tactics in a fight is a bad idea.

Sometimes, it's not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iDlzL7zrNU

I've had the opportunity to train with martial artists and combat athletes of all stripes and levels, and I will say that boxing produces some of the toughest fighters out there. Not people you want to screw with.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:52 pm 
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Good points Jake.

Another thing that is impressive in Pekiti Tirsia is the fantastic footwork they practice [watch Wes Tasker in action] and the fact the system is designed to use the same moves empty handed and with weapons in the hands.

If the people in the clip had attacked the boxer in a bunch and taken him down, the outcome might have been different.

On the other hand, I agree about boxers being very effective in fights.

They are schooled in footwork, they can take lots of punishment to body and face, and they train with a different intensity than most TMA people.

And all of them can hit in ways that the 'average' TMA practitioner cannot.

Facing down my two boxers students on the floor is a sobering event.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:40 pm 
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The Filipino Martial Arts have a reputation for having a great emphasis on footwork. Many boxers do as well, though it varies a lot from coach to coach.

Agree that the boxer in that video could have ended up in bad straits...but he didn't. :-)

Many, many people underestimate the intensity with which even a decent amateur boxer trains. Tough sport.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:02 am 
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So true Jake, and the boxers can take incredible punishment, like powerful blows to their ribcage, liver and kidney areas without flinching.

And they can even take kicks to the legs in spite of our assumption that one good low leg kick will stop them.

Plus their stamina in the ring...their ability to go 3 minute rounds almost endlessly...

In contrast we see karate people struggle through a couple three minute rounds in Dan testing.

Ok...so karate is not a sport :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:52 pm 
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The whole sport vs. non-sport/street thing sometimes bugs the ##### out of me.

While I agree that there's a difference between a three-minute boxing match and a violent assault, I think people on both sides of the fence tend to put blinders on and not realize that there is good stuff to be learned from the other side.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Human nature to believe strongly in what you believe in. But I agree, there is much to learn from sport and street.
I use to think that point fighting was lesser than full contact as far as the sports venue until I actually did "point fighting". I have now much I wish to learn from point fighting. Good practice to respect both sport and so called street methods until you have mastered both...If you can live that long ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:33 pm 
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I agree. The attributes one develops in free fighting with any so called 'rules' [ in the old days you fought no contact rules to the face, not to the body...yet everybody was getting hit] are extremely important in developing the overall abilities of 'engagement' that being the key word.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:20 pm 
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I agree, but I was also thinking more broadly.

Sport fighting does develop some fantastic attributes that can translate over to self-defense, and there is value in doing both.

But I think we should also ask the question--what is it that sport fighters do that makes them so effective? Can we take the principles behind their training and use them to to train for the street?

(I think the answer is "yes", but I'm interested to hear other thoughts as well)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:12 pm 
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I agree absolutely that good sport fighters will be better street fighters in a self defense situation. Imagine questioning someone like a Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris on their abilities to handle themselves in the street.

Here we have an interview with Bas Rutten that gives us a window on the subject.

http://www.fightingmaster.com/fighters/ ... erview.htm

Quote:
But I think we should also ask the question--what is it that sport fighters do that makes them so effective? Can we take the principles behind their training and use them to train for the street?


Good question, Jake, and I hope some will jump in with their ideas

But as a starter I will say the obvious…the sport fighters, the ones who compete in open meets, develop better reflexes and attunement to absorbing and using physical violence while under pressure, the type of pressure that can only come from open meets against a wide range of opponents, as opposed to just dojo fighters.

They get better attuned to the handling of the chemical cocktail and its limbic side effects…something that is crucial to understand.

And, as an aside, anyone envisioning defensive street fighting would do best by accepting that when messing around with street thugs you will never know who will pull a gun or blade and kill you.

This calls for a more in depth understanding of the street 'tactical component' as well as practice of it, as such component is usually not generally taught in traditional arts.

This is just as a start, Jake. Hopefully we will have more input by others.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:35 pm 
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A sport fighter understands movement. For example, overtime they pick up on cues that may indicate forward movement. Having even a fraction of a second advantage in going from threatening to closing the distance on you is significant. Feeling or seeing a disruption in the attackers balance and taking advantage of it (judoka are excellent at this) and sending them crashing into the void they created. Being able to access the injuries you receive such as "only a broken nose" should allow the sports fighter to continue in the confrontation without wasting valuable and limited resources of neurological related functions thinking the injury is a show stopper either on the receiving or giving end of things.

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