Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:32 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Force continuum
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30493
Many of of you will recall past discussions on this very subject matter.

From what I read...
Quote:
Many instructors have gotten away from using the term "continuum" to describe appropriate defensive force, and depict it as a wheel instead of a ladder, so as to be less confusing to the public or the jury.


When looking at the force continuum ladder, it's critical to remember that the legitimate defender does not have to start at the bottom level, but instead should key off the level of force presented by the assailant.

_Mas

Another way to look at this, as according to some research, including police, _is that if you program your mind in a 'response ladder' fashion...you will be subjected to much hesitation that can prove deadly.

The 'wheel' mindset seems to be the better option.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:44 am
Posts: 179
Are we speaking in a Law Enforcement sense, or a general Karate sense?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:18 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30493
That was written by Mas in reference to general karate sense, Otto.

In a police sense I believe the force continuum still applies. Thanks for the post.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:45 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30493
Another sobering piece of advice from Mas
Quote:
I've talked with too many people who froze because they weren't sure they could handle the aftermath. That's been known to get folks killed. I've found the people who fully understand the legal, sociological, and psychological aftermath of having had to use deadly force -- AND UNDERSTAND IT TO THE DEGREE THAT THEY KNOW THEY CAN HANDLE IT -- don't suffer from that deadly hesitation. That's why I've spent decades incorporating that training along with the shooting elements and the tactical elements.


And this applies to 'karate force' as well. How well do we understand and how well can we handle the aftermath?

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: "furtive movement"
PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30493
This is interesting...from another forum
Quote:
I was wondering what the legal repercussions would be if one had to use his concealed weapon (firearm) against a person who only "implies" a weapon, i.e hand in jacket pocket,etc.

A co-worker was carjacked a while back while stopped at a red light. The perp approached and opened the driver's door, and had his hand in his jacket pocket, threatening to shoot if the driver did not get out of the car.

The driver complied, at which time he was pushed to the ground, and the perp jumped into the vehicle and fled. The victim never saw a weapon, but "had reason to believe the suspect was armed".


The weapon here is 'implied' since you never saw it.

Would you be legally justified in running the man down with your car or shoot him? Or if it happened at an ATM machine and you had no weapon...would you be in legal jeopardy if you were to use powerful/destructive karate techniques on the person?

Ayoob responds
Quote:
What you call "implied weapon" comes under what is known at law as a "furtive movement" shooting. In the situation you describe, the offender gave his victim good cause to believe that he was armed with a lethal weapon. Within the totality of the circumstances you described, the offender would be seen as armed and dangerous, and a deadly force response by the victim would, in my opinion, be appropriate.

Remember that there are no guarantees.


Now this goes to the pre-emption we have been discussing.

Someone makes a move that you interpret as going for a weapon...would your training have conditioned to 'wait and see' so you can block it and take the weapon away?

This is serious business.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:36 pm
Posts: 414
Location: Strongsville, OH
Here we go!!! Liking it! A must is to be decisive and move!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

_________________




SILENCE!!! I Kill You!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 1:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 17202
Location: Richmond, VA --- Louisville, KY
Van

Was Mas Ayoob the first to come up with the wheel concept? I've heard it before. I believe I've been in conversations with Rory and/or others about it.

- Bill


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:48 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30493
Don't think so Bill. It looks like it is a Canadian approach as per this article here.

http://www.marsec4.com/2010/05/use-of-f ... ian-style/


Quote:
The model also implicitly acknowledges that officers do not apply force options in consecutive steps or stages from the lowest force option to the highest, but rather they must select the an appropriate force option or combination of options available in the circumstances based upon their objectively-held (reasonable) perception.

So how does it work? Well, the model consists of an outer area or ring which represents the officer’s force response options. These options range from officer presence and communication skills through physical control the use of intermediate weapons and ultimately lethal force.13 As an offender’s level or degree of resistance increases creating an increased potential risk, officers may escalate the type and nature of force applied to ensure they are able to control the risk.

As the officer integrates all of these factors into the totality of circumstances in which he finds himself, he is enabled to undertake a reasonable use of force response and be able to articulate to others how the situation was perceived, assessed and responded to.

Remember that this process typically occurs in seconds or fractions of seconds and much like the driver of a vehicle facing a sudden emergency the courts recognize that allowances must be given for errors officer might make in the exigency of the moment.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:56 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30493
In a 'karate' situation...say you get into an auto accident...the adverse driver gets out of his car/truck ...mad as hell at you for having messed up his brand new truck...with a baseball bat over his right shoulder coming straight at you as you get out of your car...yelling he is going to bust you up...there are only split seconds...trying to 'defuse' means trying talking to someone who is deaf because of the adrenaline dump...

Now how do you deal with that?

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Force continuum
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 5:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 30493
In my days of 'ethnic, soccer _slaughter' on the American fields...at times we would be attacked by the opposing team's crazed fans wielding all kinds of improvised weapons.

Any kind of 'continuum' but the 'wheel' would have been suicide.

Being under attack by a multitude of people totally out of control with sticks and stones, is an experience I would not wish on anyone.

Our soccer shoes' studs, combined with powerful drop kicks, were a terrible weapon upon the attackers...but quickly became a liability when running off the field trying to get away on paved roads.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group