SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

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SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:38 pm

Stevie,

We have all seen different ways to perform this move, and have been given many opinions of the correct application of this move. What I see in the bunkais does not impress me...[the right and left wauke blocks against two straight linear punches.] Nobody throws such punches in a street fight.

What applications does Shinjo sensei teach?
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:02 pm

Here's master Uechi's opening move....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6LCGlKz1dg

Look at his right arm move, and in particular look at what he does with his right hand at the completion of that move.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby CANDANeh » Sat Jul 07, 2012 3:26 pm

I see it as an attack not block. Going in before the opponent even thinks of throwing a punch. It does not even have to contact limbs to be effective...However if they (arms) get in the way that is just fine.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby robb buckland » Sat Jul 07, 2012 4:12 pm

Hi Guys !! :D

Great thread... 8)

My understanding of the 'Blocking Movements' we use as Uechika are termed "aggressive defense". If you have the time for blocking, trapping & cuffing, you have time to hit.

Practice developing head rhythm for defense of one’s head, and body rhythm for defense of ones body,(A Fluid Posture)

NOT the use of ones hands for defense.

This premise is the “opposite” of what the majority of martial arts styles advocates and teach.I believe it is a core attribute of Uechi Ryu.. :wink:
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:17 am

This is a great video to see a lot of different things.. (Again, you have to watch very carefully and know what to look for or you'll have a hard time seeing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjF66bbw ... plpp_video

To answer your question, the "official" bunkai to Sanseiryu from Kadena was to shuffle back for distance, block attacker's right punch, and scrape the eyes with the left hand in a raking movement..That is the application that he shows people. ( There are others, but they aren't so nice) :lol:

In my opinion Seiyu Sensei used a lot of tools to teach things that were sort of an over pronouncition in some areas, and almost an under pronounciation in others. (remember he was teaching a lot of guys headed back to Viet Nam and didn't have long to train them). What I mean by under pronounciation of technique is look at how Shinjo Sensei performs the Kokoshiken.. He shows it more down and vertical, But he teaches it to be at a almost 45 degree angle..(probably more like 35 degree). If you watch Gushi Sensei perform the same technique he demonstrates it as I explained. Both were taught the same Kata by the same Sensei.
So why does one Okinawan show one thing, and the other show something different? The most common explanation is that it's just one's style or way of doing it. My idea is that they intentionally and systematically made it difficult to see some hidden techniques.. Brelsford Sensei says not, but this is just my opinion.. Think about the personal liability issue if some 17 year old goofy kid got a hold of some of it and tried it on his buddy at School.. And that is how the Okinawan culture is.. They are very thoughtful to others feelings and lives. So that is why I believe as I do.. By over pronouncing some techniques, Seiyu taght them concept rather than training them actually pull it off very easily (consider a quick draw artist who breaks everything down and over pronounces each part of the draw) it wouldn't be very quick, and many may think it was just made up as slang is to proper English.. Tough concepts to put into words, but hope you guys get the gist..
Van Sensei, please watch the video here and see if you can see some things I described from Kanei Sensei.. I don't think my eyes are playing tricks with me, but they always could be.. :lol: :lol: :lol:




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:03 pm

Leo also brings a good point.. The Watarie Uke (3 Rope Bridge Block) is also a concept rather than a strict interpretation.. Imagine standing on a 3 Rope Bridge, reaching down and over to grab a pull the rope on the left side, then doing the opposite with the left hand..At Kadena we would regularly reach out and grab an inner tube and shake and rip at it to strengthen our balance applications and the tendons used to rip a Heavy Weight Shureido Gi sleeve from the top.. I believe the Watarei Uke to be another type visulisation technique that if you maintain the proper firmness yet softness in your Sanchin, the technique really takes care of itself with any application that or angle that you decide to defend at.. Tosh used to tell Potrekus Sensei that we don't do stances, we do footwork. The biggest Bang for your buck will not be a straight on attack or defense.. But if the attack comes straight on, it doesn't mean I have to leave the attacker in charge of my angles.. I get to decide that.. :wink:




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Sun Jul 08, 2012 3:56 pm

All good points Stevie and thank you.

I keep asking these questions because, believing in the effective conceptual aspects of our style_ after my training in facing and delivering lethal force in street fighting scenarios with handguns_ John Farnam of Defense training International_ and Lethal Force Institute_ civilian applications as opposed to military_

….and believing in operant conditioning…when I see applications of our techniques, over and over and over, in drills and bunkai that leave me perplexed in my own ways, and this is strictly speaking for myself….I ask questions to learn much more in the views of others when prodded to come forth with their ideas and experiences.

I have my own particular ways to apply the concepts of the 'The Watarie Uke' ....to include a natural short stop from a 'hands up' flinch reflex.

Whatever you would make habitual, practice it. And if you would not make a thing habitual, do not practice it, but habituate yourself to something else.
_Epictetus [first century AD] …how the semblances of things are to be combated_

And Grossman
Whatever is drilled in training, comes out the other end in combat, no more no less. We can teach warriors to perform a specific action required for survival without conscious thought…but if we are not careful, we can also teach them to do the wrong thing.


Practicing the wrong thing, even when knowing the right thing, causes 'scar tissue' in the mid brain.

I also agree with Leo and Robb in their views.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby robb buckland » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:40 pm

Again Love this thread just wish 'the language barrier thing ' didn't slow me down thanks for the clips !!!! :(
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Stevie B » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:04 pm

Yes Sensei.. Natural always better!! I have heard of some people that insist on performing a "Sanchin tuck" with the right hand just before the Kokoshiken..My question is "Why???" Why take yourself from what is a perfectly natural and well thought out style? Who taught that? It wasn't Kanei Uechi, or any of the big boys I know of.. I think it's fine to talk applications of techniques, but lets make sure we are in fact performing UECHI techniques and not Billy Joe Jim Bob's down the dusty highway.. That's where the confusion comes in..

Robb, I tried to give good description and interpretation.. Some things are unfortunately lost to me as well as my Okinawan Hogan is only at a small level.. But I think that part only requires just a little time and research..




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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby robb buckland » Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:18 pm

....Your doin great Stevie I appreciate the great Vid and Excelent Description !! :D
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:10 pm

Stevie
but lets make sure we are in fact performing UECHI techniques and not Billy Joe Jim Bob's down the dusty highway.. That's where the confusion comes in..


I agree with you Steve, also in the general sense of whomever wants to practice the style and seek rank in the style,must abide by some sort of Uechi Ryu world standard.

Such standard need not become onerous, as there are so many deviations we see even in Okinawan masters at times_ but it must create a veritable impression of affinity_i.e., _ inherent likeness ; close resemblance or connection to the manner in which Okinawan senior seniors.... display their kata movements/techniques.

A very long time ago, we had some guy shows up at the Mattson Academy of Boston, saying he had been studying the real thing_ the real 'Pangai-noon' and he was going to show us the 'right way' George might remember this court jester. Well, watching him 'perform' was a guarantee of stomach cramps with flatulence.

But we have had these 'standards' discussions before...nothing but a dead end.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:35 pm

Here's one good example of 'pangainoon' :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MP9XFlirx8

What I particularly like is the sequence of the left front kick followed by the right knee strike at about 4:26 in the video.

Much more realistic than using the knee strike/shoken defense against a shoot. Good luck with that one if a big strong guy suddenly comes in for a shoot. :lol:

I have seen such examples in MMA fights with Joey Pomfret.
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby robb buckland » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:37 pm

"Much more realistic than using the knee strike/shoken defense against a shoot. Good luck with that one if a big strong guy suddenly comes in for a shoot"

Great Point Van Sensei.

Now a question , It seems, in this video that 'point of pressure' ,(initial contact) of the block / strike is at a greater range than what I am acustomed to.

Is this for safety ? Or a stylistic difference ?
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Van Canna » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:53 pm

Hi Robb,

Good question...Surely Stevie will comment from the Shinjo's camp ...on the application.

I think that what we ordinarily see in kumites and bunkai, is a general concept of mating 'contact' with the emptiness of the forms in air, if that makes sense.

It is good and bad, as I have 'heretically' gone on record before.

Good because we do need a base training matrix to get the students to experience the use of the kata moves in a safe way.

Bad, because matrixing in the same basic way, forever and ever_ the mid brain develops scar tissue and prevents us from breaking free of 'habituation' that might get us killed in the street.

For example, I teach that if you want your student to use the kick to stop the threat...

...you tell him to practice more of 'sensing the attack coming' and kicking the opponent just as he is about to throw the punch when the opponent breaks the six foot safety zone and using the block more like a cover.


Does it make any sense, Robb?
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Re: SANSEIRYU'S OPENING MOVE

Postby Josann » Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:18 pm

robb buckland wrote:"Much more realistic than using the knee strike/shoken defense against a shoot. Good luck with that one if a big strong guy suddenly comes in for a shoot"

Great Point Van Sensei.

Now a question , It seems, in this video that 'point of pressure' ,(initial contact) of the block / strike is at a greater range than what I am acustomed to.

Is this for safety ? Or a stylistic difference ?


I am fortunate to be a student of Joe Graziano, Mr Gushi's senior student, at Joe's Milford Mass dojo. Joe sensei teaches close applications and I'm sure he would agree that this demonstration while clear is too far i.e. defender is reaching rather than allowing the defender to come in. All applications in Gushi's applications should be done closer, consistent with the realistic way we should be training.

Maybe Joe may read this and comment, but I'd be shocked if he did not agree.Joe's dojo also is affiliated with Walter Mattson and I know Walter is in agreement with Gushi on this.
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