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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:03 am 
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This is really the key. When we talk about individual 'templates' we consider motivations and past experiences, as well as personal beliefs.

I am with Josann here in choosing a style well proven and respected the world over, such as Uechi, and then add what we individually perceive is needed.

In my view you will not find street tactics and strategies in most martial arts styles as they will at best provide us with 'tool boxes' _ read Rory's books and you will understand the reasons why.

My personal template, for example, is a combination of the extremely effective Uechi style, and the training and tactical concepts by Lethal Force trainers, from empty hands to weapons, the very best combination there is.

The deadly force trainers would also touch upon the sometimes contrary 'Hick's law' principle, in ways not usually perceived by people. I.e., Hick’s Law simply deals with the relationship between REACTION TIME and NUMBER OF CHOICES.

What is not much understood is _ that time, and emotional energy it takes to make a decision, increases as the number of indistinct alternatives increases.

There is a lot of emotional stress that comes when people are overwhelmed with too many choices. People can worry about making the wrong choice, worry about not understanding the differences of each choice or worry that they are spending far too much time figuring out what to choose.

And all this can happen subconsciously.

As to the 'tooling' Which I equate to styles…during the deadly force training, the instructors were clear on the type of weapon [tool] we brought with us, explaining that the particular weapon should, from then on, remain the only one to be relied upon for lethal force encounters … should we find ourselves in real need of one.

As to tactics, they were of the simplest kind, without too many choices in order to not add more confusion to the chaotic state of mind one would be in.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:42 am 
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Tactics, awareness, real power, position , cover, entry, intent

So much to consider, but a simple recipe

As for Jack off all trades stuff it depends , if your collecting techniques sure it could get a bit much , if your exploring principles and filling holes in your overall knowledge not so much

I wonder where id fit heres my class training , we wont even get to the informal swapping , and this is instructed time , I still train mix all of it on my own .

13 years shotokan
9 years Uechi
41/2 years BJJ
1 year judo
1 year Escrima
1 year boxing
some irregular Mauy thai
some Chen Hsing about 6 months id guess
some tai chi

and Ive shared and swapped with Wing Chun , Goju , Aikidoka , Wrestlers , Systema , it goes on and on ......

and you know what when someone swings at me or grabs me , a punch is still a punch , a response still a response .

it comes down to wether youve done the work to ingrain it , warrior or keyboard warrior ..... the work tells the stroy

and its all In my uechi .....

theres no confusion , my hand still hits all by itself , no indecision required .

Move on if you need more information , dont move on if you just need more work.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:45 pm 
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Good points by Stryke...if we haven't practiced what we studied long enough, there will be no 'embedding' _and if we don't continue to practice those skills...well...they will fade quickly_especially as we age.

For most of us there isn't enough 'workout time' _to practice all we have done in the past.

The answer will always be to incorporate the concepts known to work into anything we happen to be doing at the moment, as what will emerge in a sudden moment, is what we are practicing the most of.

The simpler the better, as long as 'conceptually' effective.

Deadly force trainers will quickly convince anyone in their training programs, that in life-or-death situations, human beings lose basic motor skills that we take for granted under normal conditions. It is a humbling experience when your body and mind go to 'fumble' when least expected.

For example, Gabe Suarez, accomplished martial artist and deadly force instructor, along with other well respected tacticians_ will train people in empty hands skill that mirror generally _Effective Street fighting concepts…and will point out that the average street fight will last between 5 and 10 seconds.

Ever thought what we would really be able to do within those five seconds, and what best tool or tactic has the best chance of success?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Well I'm guessing that Josann wasn't including Lee Morrison when he spoke about, style jumpers and jacks of all trades.
But I believe that you can do different styles, and certainly over a long time period, our tastes change as do our physical abilities.I've done quite a few styles but for different reasons.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:13 pm 
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jorvik wrote:
Well I'm guessing that Josann wasn't including Lee Morrison when he spoke about, style jumpers and jacks of all trades.
But I believe that you can do different styles, and certainly over a long time period, our tastes change as do our physical abilities.I've done quite a few styles but for different reasons.


No I wasn't including him. He does have training in other systems but says he no longer trains anything but combatives. If you look at his techniques they are very simple and basic.Certainly he has pared down what works for him.

Most of us haven't faced real violence on a regular basis. Lee Morrison,LEO's, COs and soldiers do.We train hard and hope we never need to find out first hand what works. I admit that it has been over 30 years since I threw a punch in anger. I work in mental health and do have a lot of experience talking people down, and in restraint training, but not the kind of violence where my life is in danger. I am not sure who has been posting on this thread has had to defend themselves with their life on the line. My guess would be not many of us. And that is a good thing.

Dabbling in other systems and martial arts in general have a multitude of purposes, not all for self defense. Health, agility, discipline, balance and on and on.All valid reasons to study.A lot of recent studies on neuroplasticity indicates that movement while thinking and visualizing (kata?) are good ways to improve brain health. I don't think that doing a system casually prepares us for self defense.It can certainly be beneficial but I think care needs to be taken so as to not detract from those things we do practice to defend ourselves. To me, if I have a base style then my challenge is to train hard and make parts of it fit me for self protection. I'll continue to train the parts that are not in my self defense strategies but train them for some other purpose.

And I'm sorry if "system jumper" sounds harsh to some. That was not my intent. I'm sure many of us have seen the guy who is looking for the next big thing to protect him and does not have the patience to train in a few solid things over the long haul. Remember in the early 1990's after the first UFC, when many left uechi, and probably other legit systems as well to train brazilian jiu jitsu? Most I'd guess are no longer training in any style or fashion. My opinion is that one system if properly trained can be a lifetime system for wellness, health, meditation, as well as self defense.Many karate systems have great potential for adaptation for self defense. And, Ray, two of the best I've seen are from the UK, Iain Abernethy's Shotokan and Tom Hill's Gojo Ryu self defense strategies are about the best I've seen. Both are styles that meet the multi purpose criteria to which I am referring.

Some of us, like Van and I, were fortunate to find uechi early on.I didn't mean to offend those who weren't.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:51 pm 
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"No I wasn't including him. He does have training in other systems but says he no longer trains anything but combatives. If you look at his techniques they are very simple and basic.Certainly he has pared down what works for him. "

You give him that privilage but don't afford it to others?.
look a lot of what we say gets misunderstood or misconstrued on an internet forum, we don't know who we are speaking to, their life experiences etc...and we don't take what they say on trust most times ....but we may give it to folks who present themselves in a way that suits us, if we don't get it then we don't even try to understand it...I've tried bouncing, I didn't like it, I don't generally like the people who do it.I got paid a heckuvalot more for sitting in an office and wearing a suit.
Now I don't generally quote people.I prefer to speak from ME, but Rory Millar has said some good things on his blog...one was he asked a friend to do martial arts with him and the friend wasn't interested and Rory asked why? and basically the guy just got a hold of Rory .and Rory realised that the guy didn't need to train....Now I know people like that, one of my best buddies went to the same school as me and he was a little guy, I was always getting into fights and he never did, so I asked him why.and he said..I bought a coffee, and it was too hot so I put it down to cool, some guy came up and tried to bully me, so I threw it in his face ( age 11)..after that no one bullied me....go figure..another thing Rory said was to ask what stuff you know that works in a fight.and he meant know because you had used it and it worked, now I KNOW what works in a fight for me.and I learnt it before I tried martial arts ..and trust me I remember it all..but the attitude and the power behind it have increased exponentially..........it took me a long time to learn to be violent, to not worry about hurting someone who attacked me, to not hold back a little or a lot...............now I know that I won't. I don't think that this is necessarily a good thing. I learned how to be violent then was placed in an environment where I could never use it.where people got ahead of the game by brown nosing, office politics, and crawling etc............and self praise is no recomendation ( and this is not self praise )..............Josann if you work in mental health you are subject to a lot more violence and it's control than a night club bouncer.my wife is a nurse and has to deal with all sorts of people and she can't use violence to resolve it
honestly mate sit down and think about the challenges that you have faced.....We are currently embroiled in a legal battle to get my wife's brother the care he needs he is severly autistic and brain damaged.he went into an epileptic rage last summer when he got taken to hospital and clearded the whole of the ER room out in minutes.....he looked like somthing out of the shining screaming at the top of his voice " Not be good, Not Good".........my wife took it all in good order, bless her :D ,,,,,,,though everyone else was schitting one.....so when folks talk about violence professionas you are the people that I think of...not Bouncers :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:24 pm 
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I think this is one of those agree to disagree moments that got off line with a “term.”

As has been said posting on a forum can get derailed in a hurry when one person uses a term this way and another interprets it another.

We can sometimes clear things up by asking for the definition being used (and sometimes not.)

When it comes to sources we can only post what we see as value and others can accept or reject the source (even post the reasons) and we move on.

I would love to say I have never gotten caught up in similar disagreements but that would be a big load of BS. :oops:

I think we can distinguish between a person who explores different styles to learn and evolve and a person who skips from the latest fad style to the next without learning anything.

To me these are two very different people.

AND to be clear -- I am not sure who meant what, but that’s my take on it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:28 am 
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Well said Rick

difficult to communicate when we arent specific , stereotypes always lead to assumptions and disagreement when talking to diverse folks.

I see both points of view and to everyone here pretty much agrees on the whys

Josann sees sticking to one or two styles as a simple way to limit his tool box so he can specialise

and he sees folks that dont do the work and hop around styles without ever getting much to be missing the point .... fair call

However its a stretch to label all cross trainers style hoppers and say that folks cant cross train and keep a tidy tool box .

cross training can be about doing more with the same toolkit .

But I guess if we see things from our own perspective , were always justified , agreeing to disagree is cool .

I guess I see generalisations as just that , its like saying most karateka cant fight at all , you could justify it looking at some of the strip mall mcdojos , but it wouldnt be true some of the most accomplished martial artists ive ever seen in flesh have been karateka.

I think the commonalitys are were we cement stuff , and the differences that teach us .

I think im a traditionalist Uechika (though some would just see combatives) , I've been consistantly training karate for about 22 years , yeah it evolved from shotokan to uechi , and ive cross trained along the way , but ive always had a reference point to build on , and that to me is the key .

Learning/stealing more from whoever you can, and building upon a solid foundation .

Adam sent me a link a while ago its theme was

karates like a pond , it needs fresh water or it will go stagnant


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:07 am 
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I just went back and reveiwed this thread , its just full of great information thanks to everyone onboard.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:16 am 
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Stryke gives a great summary. I hit 22 years in uechi this week. There's is a wealth of great uechi instruction here in Massachusetts, and I've had the privledge of training with a lot of them. Currently my training is both traditional and out of the box at times. I have two years in jujitsu, and a lot of training with my sons who are now in their 20's, one of whom has muy thai and bjj experience.
And , Ray, he works his way through school as a bouncer so I may be a little sensitive about that profession.Through all of this uechi has been my reference point.I find my training more fun now than I ever did, and the enthusiasm that comes from this board is a part of that.

And without doubt written communication can be misunderstood and I think it's great that many here have taken the time to clarify what we mean to continue the dialogue.Hearing from guys that train and have similar attitudes is great and keeps the whole thing fresh and exciting.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:50 pm 
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"And without doubt written communication can be misunderstood and I think it's great that many here have taken the time to clarify what we mean to continue the dialogue.Hearing from guys that train and have similar attitudes is great and keeps the whole thing fresh and exciting."

Written communication really tells us very little of the person that we are talking to, and it's also very hard to convey information in the way we mean it, for me at least... You will find that many of the styles replicate one another, there are only so many ways to punch or kick and so many ways to throw, and then there is personal taste. Some people love kata others hate it, horses for courses as they say :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:58 pm 
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I recall similar discussions in years past, and I feel now as I felt then…i.e., it is all about the individual, his personal experiences, his particular views of what benefits him, and his own 'self projection' into the world of 'situational violence' _

As Ray points out, there are certain individuals who don't need any martial arts training at all to be very effective street-fighters.

And there are many such individuals who will prevail against most martial artists. Take one look at the 'strongmen' contest on TV and you will understand.

The way I see it…Cross training has always been beneficial when it complements a mother system, if not physically, at least conceptually… but then again I am talking from my extensive athletic background and coaches' demands.

Yet, when it comes to self protection, it is the individual's call, and it all comes down to the manner and frequency of practice that promotes 'operant conditioning' I have said this a million times.

I don't usually toot my horn on this forum...but ...from my own personal perspective_ I hail from a family of very powerful athletes. I have always had a strong, powerful body, a great help in my athletic endeavors of various kinds, and some scuffles along the way.

But it wasn't until two unfortunate episodes where my assailants came close to being killed, that I began to understand that a real fight is a terribly brutal, animalistic affair that is spiritually degrading afterwards and one which unleashes primordial homicidal tendencies. Any real fight between adults always has the potential for homicide. That is just a stone cold fact.

And the way in which I responded to those assault, although legally and morally justified, was a bit scary when realizing that I had used nothing but primal instincts.

Again I look at what a 'fight' is likely to be like most times and how long it is likely to last…about five to ten seconds.

Then what is likely to 'emerge' from an individual in spite of his training.

The brain has the cognitive part [where the learned responses live] and the reactive part which in most cases seems to over-ride the cognitive…i.e., what your body would naturally do if you did not have any training.

This is what the esteemed Darren Laur, refers to as 'training congruency' from his well studied material he presents.

The reason why in so many real fights, we see trained martial artist go into 'flailing techniques' _ and in tournament competition, we see similar techniques in spite of the difference in the studied disciplines.

So based on my personal experiences and training modalities, the best way to improve 'fighting abilities' is to first become aware of what the body wants to do naturally from an outside stimulus, and then build a simple combative system around that natural response.

This aspect, in modified format, is what my sporting coaches wanted to make clear to us in athletic performances.

Again to each his own, and, again, it comes down to individuality and what works best for the person. George Mattson always encouraged us to explore.

But my choice, with respect to "what the body wants to do naturally from an outside stimulus, and then build a simple combative system around that natural response." and this is how I teach...and I have some 'scary students'...was as follows...

_ after a fair evaluation of martial arts styles available at the time_
my choice narrowed down to jiu-jitsu…originally…then to Uechi Ryu…a formidable system, well rounded in all respects, a no nonsense system…that has all components of congruence with man's natural, primal response action when under attack...and which develops a steel muscular fascia with sanchin practice...plus 'granite bones' from heavy conditioning.

To this I added in depth training with weaponry, tactical and strategic, with lethal force trainers.

But then again, to each his own, and this is not said in criticism… you are the master of your own destiny.

What works for me might not work for you and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:12 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0gZ1QAtt20

Watching master Shinjo in action with his 'killing' techniques...is sobering to all who watch it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:16 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgsc-L3qbxk

And this is our beloved Gushi sensei[RIP] a veritable tiger...

It is all in the way we train...

The person holding the jars while being pounded upon, is my dear friend Joe Graziano, most excellent practitioner with the steely physique that Uechi Ryu promotes.

But more important than any style or technique, it is the mindset and deliberation of delivery. This is one aspect that sanchin practice develops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESYN8thb ... =endscreen

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:56 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OauaUGRqFHU

And this is a fabulous sanchin performance by Justin Testa, of our old Hancock street dojo.

We also see the famous Bob Campbell, and the pointed weapons the system develops, very unique.

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