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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:18 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:

A caveat...stay the hell away from this 'pectorals' banging due to dangers of commotio-cordis...strange that this never gets discussed in Okinawa when conditioning.

My view on this is that the teachers may not be too familiar with this danger.


Yikes... at noon today we were practicing conditioning via open palm strikes all over the torso including the chest.

Van Canna wrote:
The bruising appears to be more common in students of poor physical condition and weak muscle tone.


I'm going to try and pack on some more muscle this summer for this precise reason.

Van Canna wrote:
Younger students frequently achieve conditioning more quickly. Once it has been achieved, conditioning seems to last for a period of years after the cessation of active training.


Makes sense - the same thing goes for bodybuilding or general athletic adaptation, those who did it in their teens and early twenties are better to maintain it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:47 pm 
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Mark
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"Jorvik - Below are 2 variations of the general sport progression pyramid that I have seen in various books. You can see that in either case, sport-specific skill or technique is high on the pyramid and builds on an athletic base (flexbility, stability, balance, strength, cardio, conditioning). In other words, it's suggesting that practitioners should ideally have a solid foundation in those areas before progressing to technical mastery.

Over time, aging athletes in all sports begin to lose their physical prowess (cardio, strength, reflexes, recovery time, etc.) but can sometimes compensate for the negative effects of aging by continual refinement of their techniques. So as they get further and further from their physical prime, they can offset the impact of aging on their performance to a certain degree by continually perfecting their technique.

I realize that not all martial arts require the same degree of athleticism from practitioners but I would guess that one can still apply the general principle. "


I am not an athlete I am a martial artist..an old one, not decrepid but getting there...........now the way I see Ma is as something to give me an edge, a gun can give me an edge, knuckle dusters can or a knife, now I always carry a knife so ~I al;ways have an edge. I have never liked conditioing in the sense that it is portrayed.breaking baseball bats...notice how they always use the thin end :lol: .because they know that you can shatter a shin with a good whack......is conditioning usefull, Yeah, maybe...the way Van does it it sounds reasonable.....but it's not going to win you fights. skill, stamina strength and the way you can manipulate a fight into an area that you have trained in and are comfortable with, but where the other guy isn't........like Brazillian Jiu Jitsu......you get the guy into grappling range.or Wing chun .stand up grappling range......or maybe even Tae Kwon do you get the guy into your kicking rangs............you put him in his least desirable place and your most desirable place :)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Yikes... at noon today we were practicing conditioning via open palm strikes all over the torso including the chest.


Not a good thing Mark, did you miss my discussion on commotio-cordis?

Repeated strikes to the chest increase the chance of sending the heart into fibrillation, no matter what the age of the student.

If you train under an Okinawan Master, and wants to hit you in the chest, politely excuse yourself.

Not sure they understand the danger of commotio-cordis.

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1.The increase in heart rate (exercise tachycardia) may double the probability above (e.g., with 120 beats per minute the cardiac cycle shortens to 500 milliseconds without fundamentally altering the window-of-vulnerability's size)

2.Relative exercise-induced hypoxia and acceleration of the excito-conductive system of the heart make it more susceptible to stretch-induced ventricular fibrillation.


Legal issues

Several people have been convicted of involuntary manslaughter in cases involving insufficient and slow medical help to athletes who experienced commotio cordis during sports events,[10] as well as in cases of intentional delivery of contusive blows.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:22 pm 
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I had actually just returned from training when I read the post on commotio cordis.... In Uechi Ryu, is it only the instructors who administer the iron body conditioning?

In our school, we pair of with a partner with one person assuming Sanchin while the other delivers strikes with open or closed hands. I guess this can be a bit risky since lower rank practitioners are also hitting each other and they may not have the awareness of the appropriate amount of force or correct application of a more experienced karateka.

The Sensei is not Okinawan but rather French-Canadian. If you're curious, this is where I train: http://www.karate-andregilbert.com/index.php/en/

We were actually doing this drill because I had recently asked for more of this type of training.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:51 pm 
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I notice lots of youngsters in the class, Mark.

And these youngsters are even more susceptible to commotio-cordis than adults.

You might find that even if you bring up this subject to an old time instructor, it will be shrugged off as something 'not applicable' to them …to their style…to the way they 'teach' striking the chest.

I would be interested to know your sensei's opinion once you bring this up to him. He should read the thread on commotio-cordis and in particular, read what Dr Bill Glasheen wrote on the subject matter.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:13 pm 
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In my work, one of my specialties was the investigation, factual as a possible trigger, and medical, with the retainer of medical experts, of workers' compensation heart cases, including fatalities.

This always required an in depth look of pre-existing conditions the workers were not even aware of, that coupled with a physical and or emotional trigger on the job, precipitated death.

I bring out the 'pre-existing condition' because it is crucial for us in all we do.
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An estimated 1/200,000 apparently healthy young athletes develops abrupt-onset ventricular tachycardia or fibrillation and dies suddenly during exercise. Males are affected 10 times more often than females. Basketball and football players in the US and soccer players in Europe may be at highest risk.


Now as to Commotio-cordis
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_Screening

Athletes should be commonly screened to identify risk before participation in sports, and they are reevaluated every 2 yr (if high school age) or every 4 yr (if college age or older).

Screening recommendations for all children, adolescents, and college-age young adults include

Medical, family, and drug history (including use of performance-enhancing drugs and drugs that predispose to long QT syndrome)
Physical examination (including BP and supine and standing cardiac auscultation)
Selected testing based on findings on history and physical examination.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Screening for older adults also includes incremental symptom-limited exercise testing.

Athletes with a family history or symptoms or signs of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (see Cardiomyopathies: Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy), long QT syndrome (see Arrhythmias and Conduction Disorders: Long QT Syndrome and Torsades de Pointes Ventricular Tachycardia), or Marfan syndrome (see Connective Tissue Disorders in Children: Marfan Syndrome) require further evaluation, typically with ECG, echocardiography, or both.

Confirmation of any of these disorders may preclude sports participation.

Athletes with presyncope or syncope should also be evaluated for anomalous coronary arteries (eg, by cardiac catheterization). If ECG reveals Mobitz type II heart block, complete heart block, true right bundle branch block, or left bundle branch block, a search for cardiac disease is required.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:31 pm 
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Athletes with thin, compliant chest walls are at risk of commotio cordis (sudden ventricular tachycardia or fibrillation after a blow to the precordium) even when no cardiovascular disorder is present. The blow may involve a moderate-force projectile (eg, baseball, hockey puck, lacrosse ball) or impact with another player during a vulnerable phase of myocardial repolarization. Other causes include inherited arrhythmia syndromes (eg, long QT syndrome, Brugada syndrome). Some young athletes die of aortic aneurysm rupture (in Marfan syndrome).


More youg people die from this problem than adults, though there are still lots of deaths in adults athletes. Jim Maloney witnessed such a situation once.

And,as Bill glasheen wrote, the best way to protect yourself is to work with weights to increase the pectorals muscle mass, so as to better insulate your chest wall against this possibility.

Though the event is rare because of the 'timing' required to occur_ the risk is there, and should it ever happen in class, the teacher will come under criminal and civil 'fire' _

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:01 am 
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The pictures on the website are of the youth classes. The adult classes are separate and the training methods are different as is the gender distribution (much more guys :) ). As far as I know, things like knuckle pushups, iron body, plyometric drills, and bare-knuckle sparring are absent in the youth classes.

While I don't want to make generalizations based on limited experience, my time in this style has left me with the impression that in an effort to grind out tough fighters, KK has a certain intrinsic "balls to the wall" approach to training that can at times border on reckless. Earlier today, I brought up the point about hand infections to one of the older black belts (3rd dan) who had been a big competitive fighter a decade ago. He had never heard of infection from cuts due to striking an opponent's teeth. In class we did a self-defense drill where you grab the punching arm of your opponent, step to his side, and with your other arm smash your fist into his temple or the base of his skull. Probably very painful for the recipient but also poses a risk of boxer's fracture right?

Still, despite these hazards, I prefer to train in a place like this than in some McDojo that has me doing air punches up until brown belt. In order to get my first belt, I had to do 3 consecutive full-contact fights with 2 blue belts and a black belt and they were hitting pretty hard.

I will try and bring up the point about cardiac arrhythmias caused by blows to the chest with Shihan at the first opportunity.

By the way, I just came back from my evening judo class at the dojo where the national team trains and the nasty injuries that those guys sustain on a regular basis makes knockdown karate look like a relatively safe activity.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:02 am 
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Hi Mark,

Good to know that the youngsters are not subject to the 'chest conditioning' punches/slaps.

KK does need that 'balls to the wall' sparring in order to produce those kinds of full contact competition fighters. The question always is how long will a student stay with it, when does it stop being fun to train, does the style attract professionals like doctors etc., who cannot put their best face forward to the public, if they have to deal with full contact kicks to the face.

Also it is a liability insurance problem…try to find out what the insurance requirements are of your dojo, i.e., any restrictions on sparring?

I agree on the judo injuries, I was a green belt in judo/jiu-jitsu before I started Uechi. Lots of injuries are common.
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He had never heard of infection from cuts due to striking an opponent's teeth.


Not surprised…most people don't.
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…with your other arm smash your fist into his temple or the base of his skull. Probably very painful for the recipient but also poses a risk of boxer's fracture right?


Always a possibility. I prefer to do those strikes with the base of my palm, just as effective as a punch, if well trained, and easier to connect. Try those open palm shots on 'Bob' _ The key is to train to hit with the base of the palm by locking the shoulder into the strike.

I agree with you on the training you do vs. some McDojo air punches forever. Reason why you never see them in competition other than 'tag' games.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:52 am 
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Bone conditioning. What is the best method of conditioning your shins for Muay Thai? Practice Muay Thai. Do heavy bag rounds, Thai pad rounds and spar. Your shins will become conditioned. Period! The fact is, kicking harder substances than your shins can damage and injure them. Kicking reasonably hard substances that are still somewhat softer than your shins, on the other hand, will gradually toughen them up in a much more natural, safe way.

Your bones are hollow with columns inside them periodically to strengthen and reinforce them. When you kick a heavy bag or Thai pads hard over and over again, your body realizes the impact on that part of your body requires extra reinforcement and will build many more of these interior support columns in your shins.

Harder pads or bags will condition your shins faster (and shouldn’t injure you since they are still softer than your shin bones), but they will be somewhat more painful to kick than softer varieties when you are still in the beginning stages of your training.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:55 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
The question always is how long will a student stay with it, when does it stop being fun to train, does the style attract professionals like doctors etc., who cannot put their best face forward to the public, if they have to deal with full contact kicks to the face.


Apparently the dropout rate among lower belt participants is quite high. As for attracting white-collar participants, there are a few (professor, banker, IT manager) that come in to train. Most of the members are on the younger side with only a couple of 50+ guys. I suspect though that this has as much to do with the fact that this is a young city as it does with the intensity of KK. I have actually thought about the problem of showing up to work with a black eye myself but so far the only facial injuries that I have received have been mat-burn from judo...nothing thus far from karate.

Van Canna wrote:
Also it is a liability insurance problem…try to find out what the insurance requirements are of your dojo, i.e., any restrictions on sparring?


I have to admit that from the perspective of a participant, I had never given much thought to dojo insurance, but I'll ask about it. I don't Canada has the same culture of personal-injury litigation as the US. Everybody seems to be suing everybody down there.

Van Canna wrote:
I agree on the judo injuries, I was a green belt in judo/jiu-jitsu before I started Uechi.


I was also doing judo before I started karate. My goal was to find a striking art to complement my judo. I think Uechi would have blended best with judo due to the upright stance, close-range fighting, and open hand techniques that often involve grabbing your opponent's arm and pulling him in. There weren't any Uechi dojos here so I went with KK, which also provides a decent blend with judo.

Van Canna wrote:
Try those open palm shots on 'Bob' _ The key is to train to hit with the base of the palm by locking the shoulder into the strike.


We actually don't have any of those training dummys that you call 'Bob'...just different types of pads and heavy bags. Although, I can see them being useful training tools.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:30 pm 
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I love Montreal, Mark. I was there a few times competing in open tournaments run by Jean Angell of the Kenpo federation. Great fighters, nice people, hundreds of students in his dojo.

Ever meet him?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:56 pm 
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Yes, it's a great city. Whereabouts are you located Sensei?

I can't say that I have met Jean Angell but I recently learned that one of the new guys at my club transferred over from Kenpo.

We have a Fukien White Crane school here as well... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMtv5arrjpQ. I considered it for a time due to its similarities to Uechi....


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:29 pm 
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Hi Mark,

I am in the Boston area.

Yes White Crane has Uechi similarities.You sound well informed and with a friendly personality.
I enjoy having you on my forum. :)

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