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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:18 pm 
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Love that TFT quote, Van. That is exactly what I teach.

Block and counter simultaneously if you unfortunately missed the opportunity to do the preemptive counter (love that term). And of course, continue with further defense strikes.

As to Kata applications, well, let me start by saying I love doing Katas and frequently think about applications. It adds fun to the practice. They have to be realistic though. That is really why I did the original post here.

People do Katas and Apps for various reasons but I do them only because I enjoy doing them. I don't feel right if I miss doing my katas regularly. But as far as real street fighting is concern, well, I practice and use a whole different set of stuff, some even simulate certain Kata movements. I guess I am just not good enough to trust that whatever ingrained in me from my Kata practices will take over in a real fight, but that is just me and no offense to anyone intended here.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:49 pm 
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Here's an article by my good friend, Darren Laur, who has posted extensively on my forum in the past.

http://www.realfighting.com/content.php?id=97

Darren Laur
Quote:
Although I do agree that we as instructors should be focusing our training at the development of automatic responses to a specific threat stimulus, what happens if those trained responses are not congruent with the bodies hardwired response during an unexpected spontaneous assault? Does it not make logical sense that we as trainers should teach a physical response that would be congruent with what the brain has preprogrammed itself to do through millions of years of evolution?


In my view...kata does teach useful mechanics, mental and physical...but more important, it is the conceptual applications that match what the bodies... our body and the opponent's body... will move/perform in a combat situation.

There are some interpretations of kata, as Henry pointed out, that are not only ridiculous, but ingrain idiotic response actions that will get those people killed.

The reason why I don't teach 'applications' other than the most obvious ones that conform with what has been observed to happen in a street fight, and are congruent with the way we would subconsciously be recognized by our primal brain to be useful.

Another example: the seisan jump sequence against a 'stick' attack...

Now imagine you cutting someone off and getting into an accident, you get out of your car, mentally upset, and realize the other driver, six feet four, 240 lbs, is coming at you with a baseball bat aiming for the side of your head.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Darren Laur
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Once an emotion has been turned on, it is difficult to exert conscious control over it at will. What this means to me is that in an unexpected spontaneous attack, if you are training motor skills that are not congruent with what the amygdala will cause the body to do, more specifically the "Somatic Reflex Potentiation" no matter how well trained the response, it will be overridden.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:58 pm 
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Right on Rick.

The attacker wins. Period.

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So many of the questions we receive here at TFT revolve around what to do about an attacker who does this or that, sometimes pointing to videos of the incident in question, seeking clarification on just what the victim could have done in the face of such brutality.

Nobody wants to hear what I really have to say: That the victim should have done the exact opposite of what they did, that they should have done all the things the attacker got right. It's not about defense or fighting back, it's about being the one doing the injuring. It's about being the attacker.
_ TFT

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:00 pm 
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Quote:
"Attacker" is wolf-speak, and what we really mean is "criminal" and "bad guy." It has a distinct negative connotation, so much so that while everyone can agree that "self-defense training" is a Good Thing far fewer people would want to study "attack mechanics" where all we practice is putting people down so they can't get back up again.

And yet... the worst people out there, the ones who use violence as an everyday tool to get what they want, never ever see themselves in the role of the defender or the victim.

This is telling. This is everything. This is the hard light that boils away the labyrinthine logical constructs we try to use to distance ourselves from the endpoint of all violence: You, hurting another person.
_TFT

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:15 pm 
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Quote:
Another example: the seisan jump sequence against a 'stick' attack...

Now imagine you cutting someone off and getting into an accident, you get out of your car, mentally upset, and realize the other driver, six feet four, 240 lbs, is coming at you with a baseball bat aiming for the side of your head.


Umm, the Seisan jump, here is an example of the sort of modified bongai I teach. Note that the block doesn't come before the counter like most folks do in the dojos, and the elbow strike doesn't aim at the mid rib area as in the kata where it won't do anything (not to the typical monsters out there anyway). I guess this also demonstrates what I have been yaking above on being realistic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdBUEnByQH4

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:37 pm 
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I think that there is a big divide from what a Chinese practitioner thinks of kata and what a Japanese practitioner thinks of it. In the West we had karate before we had kung fu, although kung fu is the older method, and this colours people's vision of what kata is or should be, we view it the way that the Japanese tell us to view it.....when the Chinese really don't view it that way at all. Having said that, the same rules don't apply to all Chinese styles.but having studied various styles of Tai Chi and Wing Chun I concluded that the kata was not such a big deal as it was made out to be.to be honest when I studied the best Wing chun I have ever studied.............kata was hardly talked about, it was about as relevant as basic punching, you had to do it but it was very subserviant to any two man exercises that you did, simply because they were closer to real fighting.it was more about learning a way to move unrestrictedly than having the imposed restrictions of a kata.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Good clip, Henry.

However, as Bill Glasheen and I were working on at camp, We prefer the 'off line' app.

Bob Campbell will fly off line at a 45 degree angle 'fly by' to the left of the bat as it is being cocked, then place his left hand around the chin of the attacker, and as he rotates behind him, he places his right hand alongside the opponent's right side of his head...twisting his neck for a takedown.

I use a similar concept by flying by the attacker at his left shoulder while striking behind his left elbow with a forearm/right shoulder impact, while keeping my left arm in a strong sanchin so as to catch any part of the swing that gets by my 'fly by'...

AS I rotate, after a forearm/shoulder hit behind his left elbow...I then place my right arm under his arms holding the bat, and yank the bat out of his hands while I keep spinning him, then smash the bat into his legs.


If at any time my 'spin out' off the line of force goes awry, I either strike the base of his skull with a forearm smash and or grab him by the collar and slam him down onto the floor.

The reason why I like this is because all my students are powerhouses. One particular one is a natural strong man with arms the size of legs, and when he swings the bat, he will go through any type of 'blocking' and smash you to the floor.

With our luck it might be just one of those monsters jumping off his pick up truck wanting to murder you.

Also to keep in mind is the psychology of the attack, the fear that pervades the person being attacked as he knows deep inside he might just be dead or paralyzed in the next few seconds against a big mean attacker...all this leading to possible mistakes, and also no guarantee any elbow strikes will stop the assailant.

Furthemore there is no way of telling where the swing will be directed to...
he may swing down to the legs or horizontally to the side of the head.

Best way, if there is one, is to attack the man with the bat as soon as he closes the distance if one cannot run away. This is deadly force at its worse.

My response is similar to this aikido clip, only much more violent entry and rotation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03-FeAhCPok

All my teaching now revolves around getting off the line of force of an attack. Not being where the attacker has aimed, is the best defense as taught by the lethal force trainers.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:14 am 
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Excellent stuff, Van, "off-line" movements are certainly effective for a lot of self defense techniques.

One point though, I should've clarified my clip a bit: It is a modification of the typical Bongai therefore still follows (or has to follow) the kata movement somewhat, otherwise someone will quite rightfully say it isn't Seisan. For those who is unfamiliar with the Seisan Bongai, that specific movement is typically performed as follows: first circular block, then stops half a second, then follows with a elbow strike to side of the chest. This by the way, if we go back to my original post, is another example on how some applications not being realistic. Whether mine is effective or not I believe it is still less unrealistic than the typical way being done- mine blocks and elbow strikes the neck/head area simultaneously.

As I mentioned before:
"But as far as real street fighting is concern, well, I practice and use a whole different set of stuff, some even simulate certain Kata movements."

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:26 am 
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I thought I would post this small presentation on a slightly different view of applying Kata principles.

I have strong views on things like Kata and body mechanics and I am not shy about presenting them so I am giving a fair warning.

Let me be clear I am expressing my views -- YOU should practice Uechi as YOU wish – no one can tell you how to practice Uechi (other than perhaps your teacher). I know I don’t want to be told and even when I had a teacher I tended to do my own thing which made me a bad student. 8O

http://wpd-rc.com/blog/kata-a-short-wor ... lications/

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:07 am 
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Henry
Quote:
One point though, I should've clarified my clip a bit: It is a modification of the typical Bongai therefore still follows (or has to follow) the kata movement somewhat, otherwise someone will quite rightfully say it isn't Seisan.


Yes, I understand that, and if a student is going for his Dan rank test, then he should show the 'standard' app.

However, Walter has told me many times that the Okinawan masters [Takara sensei, for one] feel that Bunkai apps. are nothing but 'a way' and not the only way for an advanced practitioner to 'use' the style for defense.

The final app. is something that the student chooses based on what he believes works best for him, and so Uechi becomes his own personal 'jewelry box'.

Now as to what works best, well, again it is based on the student's understanding and experience of the critical concepts of fighting street attacks, and what his primal brain will give him permission to do, technique wise.[Here best to re-read what Darren Laur wrote up above]

You come up before a Uechi board of seniors for rank, I expect that you perform kata/bunkai according to an accepted standard.
Those are your compulsories. However, if I spring surprise attackers/scenarios upon you, I also expect to see imagination at work, along reality concepts.

Walter said that along these lines, Takara sensei told him that he learns much by watching these imaginations performances by students who adapt the system to the self.

I you limit a student with 'compulsories' he will never develop an individuality that might just save his life.

As to the off line concepts...call it 'angles' we have it originally in the Hojo undo i.e., the turn, block, kick, shoken etc. that teaches how to get around an opponent's attack...then for the people who understand the in between aspects of the kata...we see the same 'angling concepts' at work.

Again, I have the 'secret weapons' at our dojo...i.e., massive, incredibly powerful students, and two former heavy weight boxers, one of whom was Petronelli trained.

When these guys come at you, empty handed or with sticks/bats, you quickly realize that if you don't get off line with particular angling moves, you will be smashed to the floor.

No need to use a block that they will overcome with power and momentum, if you 'are not there' when they arrive.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:10 am 
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'Animal' McYoung writes
Quote:
Angles are integral to doing this. They are exactly what an older, slower, creakier person (or smaller) can use, with very little physical exertion, to easily defeat a younger, faster, stronger and bigger opponent. And do so without getting torn up in the process (Important because as you get older, you heal slower).

Angles allow a smaller, weaker person to defeat a larger, stronger, charging opponent. This is because the person using angles is not contesting the larger person's advantages. It's rendering those advantages meaningless. It isn't just refusing to play the larger person's game, it's taking away those advantages.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:16 am 
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McYoung
Quote:
Researching how to render your opponent incapable of resisting before you find yourself in a situation requiring control and restraint techniques, will save you massive amounts of hard work, frustration, fear and -- most importantly -- injury. And by this we mean injury both to you and to the perp.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:18 am 
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http://translation.babylon.com/english/Bunkai/

"Bunkai in English, literally meaning "analysis" or "disassembly", is a term used in Japanese martial arts referring to the application of fighting techniques extracted from the moves of a "form" (kata)."

I have never understood the concept that there was only one application for a movement in kata.

To me Bunkai is as it translates: an analysis.

You pull the movement apart and try it out here there and everywhere to see what it is made of and how it might be used.

NOT to memorize when he does this I do that but to understand how the principles can be used in many many many situations.

ONLY by looking at the usages from as many angles as you can can you begin to understand the principles and their uses, how to adapt them to different scenarios etc. ONLY by understanding the principles and their uses do you have any hope of creating them within a real life situation.

I don't memorize Bunkai of any kind. Even my Kanshiwa Takedown Bunkai if I want it to look the same I have to look at the tapes OR I simply recreate on the fly.

But if you don't look at what you are doing and explore the many applications of the Wauke for example then, in my opinion, you really miss how to take Uechi into alive training.

Bunkai is to explore, discover, learn and free yourself to create responses to any line of force -- it is to free you for any application. It is not to lock yourself into a box of limited applications.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:51 am 
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Amen, Rick, great post.

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