Uechi-Ryu.com

Discussion Area
It is currently Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:21 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 374
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Let me get this out of the way first. I said earlier:
Quote:
To be a Martial Artist I should not just emphasize the Martial and neglect the Art. There are practitioners out there who are equally or more interested on the Art part of Martial Art. ------
So, although my posts stressed the importance of realism in the narrow view of street fighting, in no way was I disrespecting those of us who are equally or more interested in the artful interpretation of kata movements.


OK, let me continue:
From Van:
Quote:
The final app. is something that the student chooses based on what he believes works best for him, and so Uechi becomes his own personal 'jewelry box'.


Yes, sounds wonderful. No offense intended to both Van and Walter, I love both of you. We are sort of being forced into that line of thinking however, due to what we normally practice in the dojos. Please understand that I am not bad mouthing the style, I love it or I wouldn't be doing it for the last 48 years. I am just criticizing some of the old applications brought here from Okinawa that are totally out of date but still being taught and practiced. (Another silly one from Seisan just popped into my mind: grapping your opponent's waist and lift him or shove him 90-degree to another opponent who is coming at you from the right side with an overhead Samurai sword strike. Wow!)

Somehow my original post has gone off track but my original point is that the Bongai's being practiced by students regularly should be as realistic as possible to begin with. Of course one can play around with numerous ways of applying but he still should regularly practice it in a realistic manner.
Again, my original post is pretty much narrowed to preparation for street fighting, or call it street self defense if you will. It is difficult enough to remember one's own name during a fight, never mind the task of choosing an application when the fight comes, or counting on some beautiful move to appear miraculously during a fight because of the superb kata trainings. It just won't happen. That has to be done and practiced beforehand. Whatever closes to the "final" app should be the one the student practices regularly.

I also made this comment earlier:
Quote:
The technique may be good only if you are comfortable in executing it and believe that it will work, otherwise at the critical moment it won't come out or may not come out the way you hoped


Thank you all.

_________________
Henry
www.ConfidentDefense.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:10 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 5:48 am
Posts: 348
I applaud you're honesty , I think the majority agree, but operant conditioning goes both ways


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 3:29 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29733
Quote:
Yes, sounds wonderful. No offense intended to both Van and Walter, I love both of you. We are sort of being forced into that line of thinking however, due to what we normally practice in the dojos.


True. The reason why it is up to the practitioner to diverge the apps from the 'standard' based on his envisionment of what works and what does not for him personally...we need to 'deprogram' the apps that don't match our beliefs as we train. It requires lots of discipline.

Plus the concepts of street confrontations are never really addressed in a dojo adequately without specialized knowledge.
The best way to grasp these concepts, in my view, is to read and re-read books by and to train under Sgt Rory Miller.

A whole different world.

I agree with the silliness of lifting an opponent into a 'sword'...but /I see that move as a concept...example, I don't teach it that way at all...I teach it to angle _step off line ...get behind him, using him as a shield and shove, not lift, him into another opponent or into a wall, such as in 'stacking' under multiple assailants attack.

I focus all my teaching and practice on moves from the style that have the higher percentages of working on the street according to my own understanding of what is needed and what will our bodies let us do under the pressure of survival.

These lessons Jim Maloney and I learned well, not in dojo, but while training under lethal force trainers, one in particular John Farnam....http://www.defense-training.com/johnres.html

We covered, in the duelatron scenario, martial arts concepts and both Jim and I were asked to show some of our training. John has a nice way to point out to you when you should 'stop and desist' in your defensive attempts...because you have just been killed by an opponent...with empty hands or weapons.

It feels sort of depressive when you are told to 'drop your gun' because you are dead.

It is not about me or Walter, Henry...

Walter is relating to me what Takara sensei's defensive concepts are to be found within the Kata.

You may believe in one approach and that's fine...it's all good...but as in mine or others...it is not an approach that all believe in.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 10:36 am
Posts: 519
I think that you have to be very carefull here. How somebody responds to a police officer or, if they are in prison, to their warder is very different to what most people will experience.
As an example I know a police officer who was driving home when he saw somebody driving and talking into a mobile phone ( a criminal offence in the UK)..so he drove past the guy and and mimicked him using the phone and the guy gave him a two finger salute and a lot of obscenities, so my friend drove past him and held up his warrant card ( police badge) for the guy to see....and the guy's attitude changed immediately and he put the phone down and became very humble......now cops get this all the time and they expect the respect afforded their uniform, I think sometimes past on this forum I related the case that I was involved in where a cop got headbutted unconscious, now nobody knew he was a cop :roll: ...just sayin :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29733
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAuAEvHxf9s

Just look at the footage 09 through 015 an example of a big powerful berserker coming in to kill you with a bat. You may disregard the apps.

But put yourself at the receiving end of that attack. In the state he is in full of adrenaline, and raging, even assuming an elbow strike hits him in the head, chances are it won't even faze him as he bowls you over with momentum and breaks you in a thousand pieces.

Unless you get off line, and best yet, keep on going off line...you may well end up in a pine box.

This is deadly force.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:02 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2000 6:01 am
Posts: 374
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Nice clip. Franco has some good stuff.

Quote:
I agree with the silliness of lifting an opponent into a 'sword'...but I see that move as a concept...example, I don't teach it that way at all...I teach it to angle _step off line ...


Van, I like your practice of stepping off line. As a matter of fact, that specific Bunkai movement has been taught differently by me also. Similar to your method by the way. I have the opponent charging at me straight on, I step off line turning 90-degree clockwise and shoving him away with one or both hands, maintaining the Seisan kata movement.

I think there is at least one reason those "standard" Bunkai's are difficult to change even if some applications ought to be changed. The movements are "standardized" so that, for example, Uechi practitioners from Poland can perform the same Bunkai with someone from India. Difficult to change anything when too many people and competing associations are involved.

I recall GEM mentioned that although the Bunkai's are performed with the standard movements up to and including the Shodan test, after Shodan however, he has no problem with students experimenting modified Bunkai movements, even for higher Dan rank tests. I assume and believe the modified applications still need to follow the kata movements.

Jorvik,
Quote:
How somebody responds to a police officer or, if they are in prison, to their warder is very different to what most people will experience.


Roy Miller is a fantastic instructor and a friend. Jorvik has a good point though. I stutter if a cop asks to see my drivers license. Watching how prison guards operate on reality TV (thank goodness that's the only way I see the stuff), the guns and badges and the uniforms usually scare most trouble-makers into semi submission, then adding the overwhelming force the guards usually have backing them up during encounters making a typical hostile situation a normal Joe may encounter on the street a totally different animal.

I think it is time we work on a different post don't you all think?

_________________
Henry
www.ConfidentDefense.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
Posts: 1176
Van Canna: "a big powerful berserker coming in to kill you with a bat. You may disregard the apps."
"Unless you get off line, and best yet, keep on going off line...you may well end up in a pine box."

The way I see it, just because I practice a holistic physical culture based on kata, exercise, conditioning, meditation and tactical movement, I'm not going to completely forego common-sense and the instinct of self preservation by trying out my karate on this guy, just for the hell of it. I'll stay away from the bat.


Last edited by fivedragons on Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
Posts: 1176
I would probably end up throwing a rock at his head. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29733
Quote:
I think it is time we work on a different post don't you all think?


Feel free to start any thread you want.

But this thread is not finished as of yet.

There was another similar discussion on this which you might have missed. Recommend you read through it as there is much to learn from high ranking Uechi masters.

viewtopic.php?p=205441

I will give you the highlights:

1.
Quote:
Finally asking Miyagi sensei about the tradition, he replies "Kata should be passed on without a single change; meanwhile, a karateka should develop his own techniques.


2.
Quote:
If the master teaches you one, you should research 9!"

Also, Miyagi sensei believes that in karate, intelligence and academic studies are not what matter; what matters is the technical research.


3.
Quote:
Thought you guys might like this..... While speaking to Brelsford Sensei, he simply repeated what Kanei Uechi Sensei and Nakahodo Sensei told him time and again... "Bunkai is just an application. If you understand the waza..the movement, method, application variations, and it strength ...one waza over another..then you can apply the "method" as you wish or as the situation dictates.... bunkai is a standard to START from... neither the beginning or and end just a basic reference point...a standard..for test basic understanding"... I think Rick Sensei will agree that this is a very good interpretation..I myself put it together with my Bar Businesses on Gate 2.. I had a certain way every time that was a good way to lead.. I could always change.. But the Boshiken was always there.... Didn't have to refer, which is what I think Rick Sensei was trying to get to.. :lol:
Stevie B

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29733
Quote:
Kanei Uechi Sensei and Nakahodo Sensei told him time and again... "Bunkai is just an application. If you understand the waza..the movement, method, application variations, and it strength ...one waza over another..then you can apply the "method" as you wish or as the situation dictates.... bunkai is a standard to START from... neither the beginning or and end just a basic reference point...a standard..for test basic understanding"...


It could not be any clearer than that. Or maybe we should argue with Master Uechi or Master Nakhodo, or Mark Brelsford who trained under Master Uechi in Okinawa for ten years...don't you think?

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29733
fivedragons wrote:
Van Canna: "a big powerful berserker coming in to kill you with a bat. You may disregard the apps."
"Unless you get off line, and best yet, keep on going off line...you may well end up in a pine box."

The way I see it, just because I practice a holistic physical culture based on kata, exercise and meditation and tactical movement, I'm not going to completely forego common-sense and the instinct of self preservation by trying out my karate on this guy, just for the hell of it. I'll stay away from the bat.


Right on 5D...it is all about understanding the dynamics of violence.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
Posts: 1176
And then we could ask "does throwing a rock at his head work?" lots of variables there. All I know is that it is in my kata.

Put a rock in a crane strike and let it fly.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:05 am
Posts: 1176
Screw it, the only thing I practice in kata is that if someone decides to prey on me or anyone that I can help, I might have to prey on them. There will be no one else but me, no sensei or master, no style or any kind of illusion to help me.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:24 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:43 am
Posts: 119
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Henry:

Are there bad interpretations of Kata out there?

Yes I believe so.

Are they due to who interpreted them or the goals for the Bunkai or because of how the Kata are being performed?

I have my opinions but that really isn’t for me to say.

The preset Bunkai were created for standard testing.

As pointed out being standard then Uechika everywhere have a common thread to bind them when training together.

There are reasons they exist and reasons they still exist even when the some applications have always had questions.

And they will continue to exist as long as they are part of the test.

I am not going to comment on if they are bad or good, I stopped doing them years ago.

The minimum they are is a way to say HEY MAYBE THIS KATA STUFF MIGHT BE USEFUL.

The minimum they are is a way to get people thinking about how to use the principles demonstrated in kata in application.

The problem may simply be that people stop the learning at that point with the preset Bunkai.

I read once, and George Sensei can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that on the very first black belt test there were no prearranged Bunkai and folk didn’t do so well, so they created the preset ones.

So the question then is do you want to test how well a person can re-enact a movement or if they actually know how to apply the Kata?

And there may be points in training where re-enacting is the skill level and then that changes.

The choice is what those are and if they should evolve with rank and skill.

Perhaps there should be a review mechanism to alter and evolve them.

Any alteration or creation for that matter means you must remember that the goal of what you are teaching will drastically change what you are teaching i.e. Sport to personal protection to protection of others to military combat.

Bunkai created for one will not and should not look like one created for another.

So first determine your goals.

OK off my own topic again.

I guess what I am saying is if you are out to change the preset Bunkai Henry – good luck you will need it.

You would be better asking to have the Bunkai move from the sports distance style to assault distance as the practitioner moves up in rank and skill AND at some point the practitioner will have to apply kata themselves. Perhaps first presenting their own Bunkai. Perhaps being told to create one for a set number of moves with some time being given on the test and every attack will begin with a grab (or some preset style of attack) or perhaps they eventually have to do it alive with no preparation and no preset attack….

I know I have started to ramble.

I teach from a principle base which means I do not teach any memorised techniques or applications BUT you have to demonstrate a technique or application to demonstrate the principle in action.

Right now I am only working and teaching a few people who already have martial backgrounds. There is Uechi of course, and Wing Chun, Jujitsu, Muay Thai, FMA and a lot of security / LEO experience. So I can teach directly from principle to alive application because everyone has a solid base in something.

So Henry I am not sure what purpose you had in mind for this thread but it sure has generated some very good conversation and comments.

Sorry if I went all over the place here hopefully I said something useful.

_________________
Rick Wilson - http://wpd-rc.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:44 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 1999 6:01 am
Posts: 29733
Rick, as you remember, what you point out in great detail has been the subject of similar discussions on these forums in the past.

In fact you posted a thread 'Bunkai' years back. Here it is...

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=14997

Then you wrote
Quote:
The principles of the Kata can be applied in many ways. We are creating lines of force to be used on incoming lines of force. Because the incoming lines of force cannot be predicted in real life neither can the uses of lines of force be restricted in real life by anything other than the effectiveness of their use.

For me Bunkai for a Kata can and should be different every time I look at it.


In the past I posted much information on Jiyu/Kobo [Jiyu -- unchoreographed]...[Kobo -- attack/defense] Toyama sensei related from his training under Kanbun who prepared his students for combat in that manner in his dojo.

The old Wakayama Dojo where Kanbun Sensei taught was only 6 tsubo with a hard-packed dirt floor. One tsubo is 3.954 sq. yards -- the working space
of the dojo was 4 tsubo (Kanbun Sensei's personal living space was the other
2 tsubo).

Jiyu kobo was taught in this tight little space where it was very easy to be crushed against the wall under an explosive attack by a very large and mean opponent, such as we see in the clip I posted of that huge maniac coming at you with a bat.

Trying to meet that incoming force straight on and hoping to stop the assault with an elbow strike to the face is not something I would feel comfortable teaching my students. Again imagine trying to stop that guy in the clip...look it over and over and over.

Reason why I keep bringing up my training under lethal force trainers, is because it is there that I learned you can shoot a crazed assailant dead center with a .45 auto hollowpoint, and before he stops or dies, he will have another 15 seconds or more to overcome you and kill you.

Another important life saving skill you learn under those trainers, is how programming getting off the line of force, might just save your life someday when faced with a situation akin to the 'Tueller Drill' the so called 21 foot rule.

Most people here have never been subjected to the Tueller Drill as taught by deadly force trainers. It is a veritable 'eye opener' that leaves you a bit shaken.

You don't ingrain the 'off the X' skills, you are a dead man.

_________________
Van


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group