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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:56 am 
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Rick,
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So Henry I am not sure what purpose you had in mind for this thread


Good question, Rick. Come to think of it, I don't know.

I guess I let my frustration that morning after a bad workout got the better of me.

After all those many many years doing Uechi and other martial arts, I really should have known better and have better control of myself.

I enjoyed reading all the comments though. Van as usual, provided exceptional vision and knowledge on things and is a treasure to the forum. Glad that I know you, Van, and thanks for the opportunity to let me blow steam.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:00 am 
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Forget karate strikes...what if you just shoot him with a gun?
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Defending yourself with a handgun isn’t like the movies. Your attacker won’t be blown backwards when he is hit. He may not realize he’s been shot even if the hit is a solid one.

Even if he takes a bullet right through his heart, it may take 30 seconds or more for his brain and body to stop working. Thirty seconds may not sound like much, but it is enough time for him to fatally stab you, enough time for him to club you into brain-damaged unconsciousness.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:03 am 
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hthom wrote:
Rick,
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So Henry I am not sure what purpose you had in mind for this thread


Good question, Rick. Come to think of it, I don't know.

I guess I let my frustration that morning after a bad workout got the better of me.

After all those many many years doing Uechi and other martial arts, I really should have known better and have better control of myself.

I enjoyed reading all the comments though. Van as usual, provided exceptional vision and knowledge on things and is a treasure to the forum. Glad that I know you, Van, and thanks for the opportunity to let me blow steam.


Not a problem Henry and thank you. We are all here to learn as much as we can in these short years on earth.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:06 am 
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WOW, Van you have either a great memory or search engine :D ) that was posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005

My opinions are pretty much the same. 8)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:12 am 
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You are a good man, Rick, and a great asset to this forum. Maloney's group in Halifax loved your seminar. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:40 am 
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8)

I think it all comes down to goals as Rick said , You can be brutal and effective from kata , and there are some not so brutal and effective Bunkai , but that doesn't make the katas ineffective just the bunkai and with enough ingraining said bunkai will make the practitioners equally ineffective.

Now I'm sure we can all agree disagree on what is best , but at best you are what you train.

I think Jyu-kyobo is the way to go , create the violence , expirement with the Uechi response , and then plug it back into your kata , then repeat .

the imaginary stuff wont pass the sniff test let alone the pressure test.

http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=14997

Wow good old Link Van , cant believe I'm still here providing comic relief and derailing the thread all these years later :lol: :lol:

Usual suspects


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Here's is something of interest on getting off the line of force as explained by the famous Gabe Suarez [deadly force trainer]

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So that leads us to an examination of how to Manage the X. The secret is to change your positioning in relation to the adversary's attack. There are several ways to accomplish this, but at its foundation is the need to change the relationship between the line of attack and the intended target.

Moving the X is one option that is rarely considered in the gun world, but always a first option in the world of martial arts. It differs from getting off the line of fire (getting off the x) mainly due to interval problems.

Conceptually, it is most applicable inside arm's reach where you can affect position by moving around an adversary, either by your own positional changes or by moving or redirecting his own attack.

This in effect does the same thing as moving off the line of fire. Consider an attacker is coming in with a Folsom Prison stabbing attack. You pass the attack off to your right and now find yourself off his right shoulder...on his flank. You have vastly improved your positioning and moved the X off his attacking line.

Finally we have Moving Off The X. The X of course is the intended target's current position.By employing various movement methods, one can evade an adversary's initial attack and counter him before he can recover.

Generally a reactive concept, it is usually most applicable when the operator is in a poor position with regards to initiative, but has some distance available as well as some space available. And these do not need to be extreme as one can apply the get off the x concept in a hallway with the proper techniques.

By understanding these concepts, and organizing your training around them, the speed with which you are able to perceive the appropriate response and put it to use will be faster. And that will increase your chances of prevailing in the fight.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is all about the situation and the 'type' of enemy you are facing.

The reality is that your subconscious knows what will work and what won't under specific attacks by specific opponents, and if it clashes with ingrained 'assumptions' [to use a term from Rory Miller's books] you will freeze and become a permanent tenant in a pine box.

As teachers, we have a great responsibility to bring these caveats to our students.


Keep thinking of that maniac in the Sam Franco clip coming at you with a bat intent on murdering you, as you read this.

A good reason why a good chunk of time in my classes is devoted to have students with their backs touching the wall and 'defending' against the most common type of charging attacks, with or without weapons.

Another chunk of time we devote to better ways to deal with the 'shoot'/takedowns/tackles...using off line rotational concepts instead of the 'standard' in Seisan bunkai...that though conceptually sound...needs a 'makeover' to avoid you being picked up and smashed into the ground or against a sharp corner of a wall at a party or in a bar.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:26 pm 
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Van Canna wrote:
Henry
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One point though, I should've clarified my clip a bit: It is a modification of the typical Bongai therefore still follows (or has to follow) the kata movement somewhat, otherwise someone will quite rightfully say it isn't Seisan.


Yes, I understand that, and if a student is going for his Dan rank test, then he should show the 'standard' app.

However, Walter has told me many times that the Okinawan masters [Takara sensei, for one] feel that Bunkai apps. are nothing but 'a way' and not the only way for an advanced practitioner to 'use' the style for defense.

The final app. is something that the student chooses based on what he believes works best for him, and so Uechi becomes his own personal 'jewelry box'.

Now as to what works best, well, again it is based on the student's understanding and experience of the critical concepts of fighting street attacks, and what his primal brain will give him permission to do, technique wise.[Here best to re-read what Darren Laur wrote up above]

You come up before a Uechi board of seniors for rank, I expect that you perform kata/bunkai according to an accepted standard.
Those are your compulsories. However, if I spring surprise attackers/scenarios upon you, I also expect to see imagination at work, along reality concepts.

Walter said that along these lines, Takara sensei told him that he learns much by watching these imaginations performances by students who adapt the system to the self.

I you limit a student with 'compulsories' he will never develop an individuality that might just save his life.


Great post Van! This is the best explanation I've heard for the inclusion of the "compulsories" in testing. We need some sort of starting point to formally measures skill some would suggest.

The World of Olympic figure skating also use to have something called compulsory figures. All the skaters had to skate a precise figure eight several times. The judges then measured the deviation from the required template and scored each skater. Think of this as a handicap as the score on compulsory's effected your total score of your effort when you actually skated later in completion.

The flaw in the system was some of the sloppy figure eights prevented the best skaters from wining the main even the skate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_figures


Put it in our context this would be like the best fighter in a tournament placing 5th because the thumb check gods said his bunkai was wrong, his elbow was too far from his rib cage or this thumb or fingers were in the wrong position when he was not moving. Hard to swallow for someone who just kicked everyone's ass.

So test are tests, competing is competing, and fighting is fighting.

None of them are the same. One needs to determine what their goals are and pick a group that fits their needs at the present time. Within each organization lies a group that probably address their needs.

Henry has generated a very active thread here. It's encouraging to see a Uechi senior question the validity of picking up fat guys and blocking sword cuts etc.. I'm surprised to see him back pedal and attempt to close Pandora's box? You can't close it once it's opened Henry. :lol: I know this because I'll been banned several times for engaging in this sort of dialogue. You sir have broached the topic with the decorum of a gentleman!

Glad I'm not the only one to express these thoughts. I was starting to feel like the Rodney Dangerfield of Uechi-ryu. It's surprising how many Uechika feel the same way about the compulsories . Sensei I've always enjoyed your clips on variations on bunkai. This is what we should see more of on discussion forums not less. Feel free to stimulate the thought process of the student in all of us.

Your take on this is not a departure from the party line. As Van points out the next step after performing the compulsories is to make it your own, show us what you can do with the language of kata this is the next step after shodan.

Henry you point out that we are not all standing at the plate with the same DNA. Our body type and mindset will dictate the response and not the compulsories. All things being equal the bigger stronger guy will win unless the other guy finds something else to bring into the plate. This is a reality in life and why many of us in the arts also carry.

You do the Uechi world a great service by posting clips of variations of Bunkai as it gets many thinking about their kata and how it might be used. Everyone needs to ponder if their techniques would stand up in a real violent confrontation if their interest in training also includes self defense.

Will something work or is it the stuff of fantasy is best discovered in training and not the street.

I'm a wee bit like Marcus in my approach to training, I dabble in violence and sometimes see a similarity between what worked and motions I perform in kata, reverse engineering application. This does temper how I may perform a particular section of kata. As time passes I may discover a new bunkai for that particular section of kata and my performance of this section will once again evolve to reflect the new focus.

It's how I work, I'm not claiming it's right, it's just what is right for me at the present time. Keep on sharing your ideas Henry, it's what the forums are for and many will grow as a result of your contribution.


~Laird


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Apparently defense against a baseball bat is a tough thing to get right, these 2 chaps had a tough go of it and failed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_NmRaygjQA :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:48 pm 
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nice post Laird , I'll point at the elephant if no one else does , but the underlying between the lines message I get.

Im not fussed because I don't do them , or the kumites , and because of that I have no right to judge because I'm already self excluding, and don't have the experience to judge, I could be very wrong. But I'm happy with my place.

The real issue isn't that there's standard Bunkai , its that many feel some of the standard bunkais ******.

I think its's very valid to have a starting point , but if we talk about operant conditioning and muscle memory we must be building what we want to ingrain , if we don't agree with something should we not be free to dismiss it?

at what point does evolution demand it ? , to me Uechi will always be the big three and conditioning and kotikitae type drills , but that's my take , others have different standards and organisations have different criteria's.

I believe confusion form applying kata comes from the kata first model

I work from the violence first model the HAPV.

I believe the kata present the answers , but not the questions.

If you try shaping the violence to fit the kata instead of utilising the answers of the kata to deal with real violence , your bunkai degrades rapidly.

first violence , second alive two man drilling/counters, third kata is the solo reinactment of the two man drilling and opportunity to refine individual mechanics.


Last edited by Stryke on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:51 pm 
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I kind of like five dragons take , throw a rock , dealing with a bat or a knife , Id rather have the rock ......


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:05 pm 
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:wink: :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:55 pm 
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Stryke: "If you try shaping the violence to fit the kata..."

Today I read something about how before both world wars, U.S. soldiers were taught defensive techniques for prescribed attacks, contained in long manuals. These were then replaced, at least for some units, with shorter manuals that focussed on non-specific methods of attack.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:02 am 
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fivedragons wrote:
Stryke: "If you try shaping the violence to fit the kata..."

Today I read something about how before both world wars, U.S. soldiers were taught defensive techniques for prescribed attacks, contained in long manuals. These were then replaced, at least for some units, with shorter manuals that focussed on non-specific methods of attack.


Principles over technique , more options less material

Kata are principle based , so you move with principle against whatever variation your practicing , and there you have it .

a line of force is a line of force be it a strike a grab a shove , we should be able to adapt the principle to the specific , more options from less , not less options from more.

techniques are like this , demonstrations of principles , but at some point it becomes the move and not the principle we get focused on.

It really comes down to how difficult it is to pass on an experience , examples are the only way we really communicate , by building a construct. But communication of direct experience is limited.

I'm a fan of military combatives as a good point of reference as it often short brutal and to the point. But there's lots of layers to the onion.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:43 am 
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easy mate no k bash from me don't get any knickers knotted up !

Military combative skills continue to evolve and become more effective. Most the military guys I shoot with don't measure up to my geezer ryu. Turns out most of the lads depend on their weapons to fight and have had next to no exposure to military hand to hand training. The basics taught are good but little effort is put on it in most forces. But those lads have some serious skills with their weapons platforms!

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