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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Van mentioned similar subject several times, as I recall.

I would strongly recommend anyone here, especially those who "carries", to make prior arrangement with attorneys, or obtain some sort of agreement with an established company that provides such legal services, in the event your wrists are cuffed. Don't worry, life is not fair. You will most likely be arrested and cuffed for hurting anyone with a gun or your karate, even if it was absolutely self defense.

I do not think your normal home owners insurance policy would provide much in this area.

There are only a few companies which provide legal protection for shooting and non-gun use of force.

I have recently joined CCW Safe (http://www.ccwsafe.com). This is not an ad for them by any means. In its Terms of Service it states the following on self defense where a gun was not used:

"Any use of force with any legal weapon or object where you could have legally used deadly force with a firearm in any instance that meets the above recognized points. Any legal weapon includes any weapon that meets the legal description of state and federal laws."

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:43 pm 
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Hi Henry,

Good thread.

Few questions:

1. The way I read this...'coverage' for criminal and civil defense ...only applies in cases of 'deadly force' application _with or without firearms but with the use of some legal weapon… State or federal…

2. "Any legal weapon includes any weapon that meets the legal description of state and federal laws"

This is very limiting as to the type of 'weapon' you could use. What if you kick someone in the head with your shoe on [shod foot] and your kick is deemed to be deadly force application with a dangerous weapon?

a] A shoe would not be considered a " weapon that meets the legal description of state and federal laws"


b] Would you be covered then?

c] What if you 'shuto' someone in the neck and that shuto is deemed to be deadly force application…

d] Would you be entitled to defense? i.e., would that shuto meet the legal description of state and federal laws? I would think not.

So 'deadly force' application with empty hands, seems to be out the window.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:48 pm 
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Also to realize that in case of defense tendered in a civil suit ...legal defense will be provided but not 'indemnity' meaning that if you are found guilty in civil law...any awards to the plaintiff will be coming out of your pockets.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:57 pm 
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Quote:
I do not think your normal home owners insurance policy would provide much in this area.


True. The basic HO policy will not generally provide defense and indemnity for any self defense action in a civil suit due to the 'intentional act' exclusion.

Also the HO policy will not cover for criminal defense costs.

It is imperative for any of us 'karate people' to buy a personal umbrella policy which will provide defense in your 'assault and battery' or intentional acts, when used to protect persons or property.

Such policy will also up your limits of liability coverage to $1 million or more.

The Umbrella ... will not cover defense costs for criminal prosecution.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 8:01 pm 
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Overall...it is still a good idea to have that kind of coverage that you bought Henry, especially if you carry and foresee the possibility of having to use a pistol in self defense.

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PostPosted: Thu May 15, 2014 11:07 pm 
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Henry
Quote:
There are only a few companies which provide legal protection for shooting and non-gun use of force.


Which specific companies have you checked out, Henry?

I suppose you mean Insurance companies?

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 8:21 pm 
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At the risk of appearing like an advertisement, please allow me to post CCW's reply to Van's questions:

"------ Please reply to Van with this answer from the company:

There are several companies in the nation that you can research with the leading three "Legal Membership Services" (CCW Safe, US Law Shield, and Armed Citizens Defense Network). Out of the three only CCW Safe and Armed Citizens Defense Network are the only two companies that cover "Any Use of Force Incident" to defend a life-threatening situation. Both of the mentioned companies are founded by retired police officers so each company has an understanding and know the importance to cover more than the firearm. CCW Safe covers weapons of the body (hands, feet, elbows, chokes, fist, etc.) as long as it is a life-threatening situation as no company is going to cover a simple fist fight. When speaking about "Any Legal Weapon..." we are truly discussing "weapons" as state and federal guidelines do not recognize weapons of the body or the body itself "a weapon". It also does not matter what type of shoe you are wearing in reference to being covered by the company. As stated on our front page, "...If our members are involved in a use of deadly force self defense incident..." Now most situations are going to be shooting incidents as that is our base coverage yet we extend the coverage for any use of force as that is how we were covered as police officers. So if someone pulls a knife or a gun on you and you choose to "Shuto" (Knife-hand) someone to the throat you are covered.

Our company will indemnify the cost of both trials (civil and criminal) by paying for and supplying the attorneys, investigators, and expert witnesses. This is a huge help to keep the member from having to take a loan or second mortgage to defend their actions; and for only $99.00 a year. You are correct in that "if you are found guilty in civil law... any awards to the plaintiff will be coming out of your pockets." because we do not pay damages or judgements. If you want a company to do that there are several "Insurance Models" that will work with us to make a complete coverage packet (USCCA, NRA, Second Call defense, etc.). Those companies charge from 250-600 a year for good coverage on the back end but force you to pay for you out of pocket expenses until you have a not guilty verdict.

It doesn't matter which company/companies you go with; you just need to have something in place to protect yourself after the smoke clears.

I hope this information was helpful.

Be safe,

Stanley Campbell, Chief Operating Officer
CCW Safe West Office "

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Henry Thom
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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:45 pm 
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Thanks for the reply Henry…it does clarify somewhat…but a couple of questions:

Quote:
CCW Safe covers weapons of the body (hands, feet, elbows, chokes, fist, etc.) as long as it is a life-threatening situation as no company is going to cover a simple fist fight.



The problem I can foresee here is the definition of a 'life threatening situation' …this can vary depending on the individual and the circumstances of an event.

Who is going to make the decision that the occurrence was or was not 'Life threatening'?

An attack may well pose a life threatening situation for one person and not for another.

A simple shove against the wall may be life threatening for a person.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:49 pm 
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Quote:
Our company will indemnify the cost of both trials (civil and criminal) by paying for and supplying the attorneys, investigators, and expert witnesses. This is a huge help to keep the member from having to take a loan or second mortgage to defend their actions; and for only $99.00 a year.


I agree, this is good peace of mind...for only $99 a year...the cost of a dinner for two.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:00 pm 
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Quote:
You are correct in that "if you are found guilty in civil law... any awards to the plaintiff will be coming out of your pockets." because we do not pay damages or judgments. If you want a company to do that there are several "Insurance Models" that will work with us to make a complete coverage packet (USCCA, NRA, Second Call defense, etc.). Those companies charge from 250-600 a year for good coverage on the back end but force you to pay for you out of pocket expenses until you have a not guilty verdict.


The above refers to 'civil defense' and civil judgments against a law suit brought by a plaintiff, the person you injured or his estate, if you killed him.

Here there is a better way to go:

You can buy a personal umbrella policy in multiples of one million dollars that will afford unlimited civil defense costs and will pay damages awarded up to the limits of the policy limits if a civil court finds you liable for the damages you inflicted in defense of persons or property.

The policy does not require that your use of force, any force, be in response to a life threatening situation.

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:03 pm 
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Here is a legal view for the state of Mass that has application when seeking insurance coverage for defense and indemnity.

http://www.kenneyconley.com/Articles/In ... aims.shtml

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PostPosted: Fri May 16, 2014 11:13 pm 
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And this is the specific language in my Umbrella policy:
Quote:
I. Personal Injury means damages arising out of the
following offenses:

1. Libel, slander, or defamation of character;
2. False arrest, willful or false detention or imprisonment,
or malicious prosecution;
3. Wrongful eviction, wrongful entry or invasion of
privacy; or
4. Assault or battery, if committed to protect persons
or property
.


The policy language has no exclusions relative to any type of weapon used in an assault or battery for the protection of persons or property.

The policy does not require that such action in protection must result only from a life threatening occurrence.

~~~

However this policy or any insurance policy, will not cover the cost of criminal defense.

The way to go is to buy both the coverage from the CCW and this umbrella policy.

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 12:55 am 
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Quote:
Who is going to make the decision that the occurrence was or was not 'Life threatening'?

An attack may well pose a life threatening situation for one person and not for another.

A simple shove against the wall may be life threatening for a person.


Good question and not a comfortable question while you are hand cuffed :mrgreen: . I think both Zimmerman and the other guy thought they were in a life threatening situation--- but hopefully we as trained karate folks have more common sense and know better (?)

A lot may have to depend on whether the company is a honest legal provider or scam artist, and who in this case is the CCW person interviews you after your call. I supposed we, again, as trained karate folks should know if we are encountering a simple shove against the wall or a shove with bad intention which requires a deadly force response. Same question when pulling out your CCW gun, by the way.

From CCW's website where it compares itself with other companies I found the following: (Let me clarify that I don't work for them and I receive nothing in return.)

" CCW Safe has an Emergency Phone Operator answers the phone to determine if there is an emergency. If there is an emergency the operator immediately connects you to a lawyer that works for CCW Safe who stays on the phone with you.

CCW Safe will have the CCW Safe Attorney attempt to calm you, guide you through interaction with arriving officers, talk to officers on your behalf to make sure your rights are protected and keep you from saying or doing anything that will work against you.

CCW Safe will have the CCW Safe initial contact attorney take care of contacting the contract attorney for the member. The CCW Safe Initial contact attorney will verify that you don’t have any injuries and if so will make sure you have EMS on the way; remind you to document the injuries by camera before EMS cleans it up. This attorney will be the case manager and act as your liaison with the defense team (Contracted Attorneys, Critical Response Team, etc.). This attorney will guide you step-by-step through the criminal and civil process until your legal issues are resolved."

I obtained the following from CCW's website's Q&A:

"A critical self defense incident is defined by CCW Safe as any self defense incident where you are in imminent danger of fear great physical harm to yourself, your family, or others, and have to use deadly force with a firearm or other weapon in order to defend yourself or your family, or others if legal, from that threat. Our services are designed to defend you from criminal, civil or administrative actions stemming from a critical self defense incident where you are defending yourself, your family, and others if it is justified within that state."

CCW's COO also provided the following response:

" I doubt seriously that you could articulate a simple "shove against the wall" to be a life-threatening situation. The further you get away from delivering proper force by the laws of the state you are in, the closer you move towards homicide. You are accountable for your actions and if you are physically able through training to bring death to an opponent then you should know what a heavy responsibility it is on the person that takes the life of another. The best attorneys in the country will still have problems if you are not in a position to use deadly force. So be it by gun or boot; our company can deal with as much heat as you can but the charges are still in your court."

Quote:
And this is the specific language in my Umbrella policy:
Quote:
I. Personal Injury means damages arising out of the
following offenses:

1. Libel, slander, or defamation of character;
2. False arrest, willful or false detention or imprisonment,
or malicious prosecution;
3. Wrongful eviction, wrongful entry or invasion of
privacy; or
4. Assault or battery, if committed to protect persons
or property.


I will check with my insurance agent on this. Nice to have but it sounds like a special coverage at extra cost?

What a world we are in!

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Henry Thom
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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 5:08 am 
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Quote:
Out of the three only CCW Safe and Armed Citizens Defense Network are the only two companies that cover "Any Use of Force Incident" to defend a life-threatening situation.


Well this to me is a bit confusing. CCW states
Quote:
A critical self defense incident is defined by CCW Safe as any self defense incident where you are in imminent danger of fear great physical harm to yourself, your family, or others, and have to use deadly force with a firearm or other weapon in order to defend yourself or your family, or others if legal, from that threat.


Does 'any use of force' need to be of a deadly nature before CCW will extend coverage?

From the above language it seems to me that coverage only applies if you have to use 'deadly force' with a firearm or other weapon. If someone pulls a knife on you, for example, and you kick him in the leg and break it…would this be considered your using 'deadly force' as per the above language? Is breaking someone's leg considered 'deadly force' ??

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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2014 5:19 am 
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Quote:
A critical self defense incident is defined by CCW Safe as any self defense incident where you are in imminent danger of fear great physical harm to yourself, your family, or others...


This is usually a matter of individual perception.

A small, frail person, being showed against the wall by an attacker who threatens to do it again, may well perceive he is in danger and fear imminent great physical harm...whereas a big strong man would not.

Remember that if you shove someone against the wall, you can be charged with assault and battery with a dangerous weapon 'The wall' being the dangerous weapon.

Again, who makes the decision on what an individual perceives to be critical v. the definition of critical incident by CCW??

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