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 Post subject: help with symantics
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:55 pm 
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Location: worcester, ma
i am looking for a word or phrase to discribe the fear of engaging in combat. that fear of taking action knowing it may cause your own destruction. we all know that many people do not act in a life and death situation out of fear, they would rather follow the commands of the mugger or assialant in hopes that things will be ok.
Ardant Du Piq wrote:
"Greek tactics developed the phalanx; Roman tactics, the legion"
"Man is always physically and morally fatigued in a hand-to-hand tournament where he employs all his energy."

"During this engagement of the first two ranks, the one fighting, the other watching close at hand, the men of the rear ranks waited inactive at two paces distance for their turn in the combat, which would come only when their predecessors were killed, wounded or exhausted. They were impressed by the violent fluctuations of the struggle of the first rank. They heard the clashes of the blows and distinguished, perhaps, those that sank into the flesh. They saw the wounded, the exhausted crawl through the intervals to go to the rear. Passive spectators of danger, they were forced to await its terrible approach. These men were subjected to the poignant emotions of combat without being supported by the animation of the struggle. They were thus placed under the moral pressure of the greatest of anxieties. Often they could not stand it until their turn came; they gave way."

i like the term "moral pressure". but i find it odd to use when i am talking about a store clerk not wanting to engage a mugger. the image of a "pressure" is very accurate but maybe not the term "moral". moral is thought of as the difference between right and wong. morale is defined as The state of the spirits of a person or group. this is not quite what i am looking for either.
if anyone can come up with a good term to use as a discription of the building pressure and fear of combat engagment i would really appreciate it. i thought i would turn here to my friends and peers to hash this out before i start using a word or term with the public at large that may not be quite right.


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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 3:24 am 
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At this moment I cannot come up with a specific term to describe the building of pressure and fear of combat engagement, though I am sure such a term does exist and perhaps our readers could come up with suitable words.

It might help to review what happens to a person in those circumstances when the 'hard wiring' emerges.

1. The very first response is the survival instinct kicking in…triggering the 'fight or flight' reflex.

2. One's very "ability to think in a rational, creative, and reflective manner" is likely to be reduced or perhaps eliminated.

3. The survival instinct is taking all the senses into overdrive, into hyper-perception.

4. Then there is Cognitive dissonance…a form of confusion and denial of what's about to happen…and this may cause doing things out of sequence under that extreme stress.

5. The survival reflex is not a matter of personal "courage" or lack thereof. It is a profound and complex physiological event designed to prepare the animal within to either fight or flee for its life:
When fear explodes inside of you, your sympathetic nervous system instantly dumps a variety of natural drugs and hormones into your body to cause a high arousal state known as fear.

You are literally under the influence of these natural chemicals, so your body operates differently, just as it would under the influence of a chemical you deliberately ingested.

6. Then a person will experience, [ amaurosis fugax] something I learned from Mas Ayoob at LFI… Hysterical or temporary blindness, another serious visual affect that, according to Ayoob, something that happens to people who are not really prepared for violence, even as they might have had some training to deal with it.

~~~

So with all this in mind…we might be able to condense it in some terminology appropriate for what you are asking.

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:03 am 
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Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
"Primal Freeze."

All the physical reactions have kicked in and a primal instinct to survive has kicked and actions (non-actions) that seem to be keeping them safe so far have created a freeze.

Everything stated in the previous posts is 100% correct.

The person has entered into a freeze:

* I’m okay right now doing nothing so maybe I should keep doing nothing.

* I can’t believe this is happening.

* I need to make a plan.

* Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Fill in the blanks of what is happening in the freeze for the individual but right then a very primal survival function has set in and frozen them.

Rory Miller writes that the only successful way he has found to break a freeze is to tell yourself to take two physical actions (and actually take them of course). Take a step. Raise my hands. or Raise my hands. Angle off their line of sight …. any two physical actions actually taken.

I don’t know what to call it but Primal Freeze seems to fit.

PRIMAL works for me because as Van points out this is something very old and deep within human physical, chemical and mental history.

FREEZE works for me because that is what is happening and needs to be broken.

So Primal Freeze is the best I can suggest.

May be others have something better. :)

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Last edited by Rick Wilson on Tue May 27, 2014 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 12:41 pm 
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Most excellent Rick and I agree with the 'primal freeze' which I believe can manifest in different shades depending upon an impending situation.

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:27 am 
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Location: worcester, ma
i have experienced what i think fits the "cognitive disonance" description but it wasnt caused by fear but more of an unexpected situation. being a witness to a crime but not the victim can also be disorienting. you think to yourself, what is going on, what just happened, is what i think is happening really happening? there is a disbelief that what your seeing is real. i like to study behavioral responses of people on youtube videos showing real crimes. i find it odd that a bank will be in the process of being held up by a few masked men and a person comes strolling in and goes right up to the teller as if nothing is happening. i think this disassociation comes into play when there is a mass killing. i belive people fail to react because in part the brain cannot put the violence into any known context and therfore takes longer to recognize it as a threat.

i like primal freeze. its a good a phrase, but is that what is happening when someone is being robbed at gun point and does not try to run or fight because they think any action other than what the criminal tells me to do will cause him to shoot? i understand the doe in the headlights reaction where the brain just shuts off but there are also times when the victim mentaly chooses not to react.
maybe this is the denial.


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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:50 am 
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There is a difference between making a conscious and logical decision to hand over your wallet rather than running or fighting and doing nothing because you are in a freeze.

To take this to a far end (but not out of reality) a guy is shooting at me and I don’t run. I am frozen in place because inside my brain is telling me that not moving has made him miss so far so not moving is the way to go even though he is coming closer and closer with the gun.

So there is a difference between a logical smart decision and a freeze.

BUT if doing what the criminal says means going to a second crime scene this may be a freeze where you are telling yourself it is all okay he said he isn’t going to hurt us he just wants to take us to his sound proof basement cell in the middle of nowhere…..

I think you know what I mean. A guy has a gun on you at four feet and says toss over your wallet and you do - I don't see that as a freeze just a smart decision.

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:29 am 
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like Ricks perspective and slightly of/on tangent

reacting or responding

is it happening to you or are you taking command of your response

to quote Ray Dalke ,
Quote:
real karate is deliberate .


this I quickly found and it was on project management , concerning reacting vs responding , an interesting topic which leads to mindset IMHO , the real freeze while it can happen to us all , when out of our obvious experience/preperation has much to do with how we confront the day to day.

Quote:
Telling the difference between reactivity and responsiveness is a challenge.

It is necessary to clearly know what it feels like to be driven by emotions and what it feels like to be in the driver’s seat, managing emotions and applying rational thinking. To know what these conditions feel like requires emotional intelligence. Emotional intelligence, in turn, requires the level of mindfulness that allows the individual to step back from his or her emotions and the feelings they bring up, viewing them objectively and not getting caught in reactivity.

Knowing the difference there is choice and responsiveness. Not knowing the difference there is reactivity.


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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 3:25 pm 
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Great thread.

I love 'Primal Freeze' !!!

When we talk about the optimum mindset for combat it's refered to as having an 'Implict Mindset'.
A non-cognitive awareness maintained durring combat where the mind is free of any words concepts or visual images. this combat effective state of mind is sometimes refered to as having a fluid state of conciousness and sometimes called the 'Zen level'.

The mindset you referred to would be the opposite i guess..the .'explicit mindset ??'

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:07 am 
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'In the presence of danger'...

Years back I discussed the book 'The gift of fear' by De Becker...in great detail on the forum. It provides great information on intuition and prediction that stimulates certain response actions.

It is worth another look. http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/b/becker-fear.html

Quote:
Denial has an interesting and insidious side effect. For all the peace of mind deniers think they get by saying it isn't so, the fall they take when victimized is far, far greater than that of those who accept the possibility. Denial is a save-now-pay-later scheme, a contract written entirely in small print, for in the long run, the denying person knows the truth on some level, and it causes a constant low-grade anxiety. Millions of people suffer that anxiety, and denial keeps them from taking action that could reduce the risks (and the worry).

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:15 am 
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Quote:
“Surveys have shown that ranking very close to the fear of death is the fear of public speaking. Why would someone feel profound fear, deep in his or her stomach, about public speaking, which is so far from death? Because it isn’t so far from death when we link it. Those who fear public speaking actually fear the loss of identity that attaches to performing badly, and that is firmly rooted in our survival needs. For all social animals, from ants to antelopes, identity is the pass card to inclusion, and inclusion is the key to survival. If a baby loses its identity as the child of his or her parents, a possible outcome is abandonment. For a human infant, that means death. As adults, without our identity as a member of the tribe or village, community or culture, a likely outcome is banishment and death. So the fear of getting up and addressing five hundred people at the annual convention of professionals in your field is not just the fear of embarrassment—it is linked to the fear of being perceived as incompetent, which is linked to the fear of loss of employment, loss of home, loss of family, your ability to contribute to society, your value, in short, your identity and your life. Linking an unwarranted fear to its ultimate terrible destination usually helps alleviate that fear. Though you may find that public speaking can link to death, you’ll see that it would be a long and unlikely trip.”

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:19 am 
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Quote:
“Many experts lose the creativity and imagination of the less informed. They are so intimately familiar with known patterns that they may fail to recognize or respect the importance of the new wrinkle. The process of applying expertise is, after all, the editing out of unimportant details in favor of those known to be relevant. Zen master, Shunryu Suzuki said, “The mind of the beginner is empty, free of the habits of the expert, ready to accept, to doubt, and open to all the possibilities.”


http://betterhawaii.wordpress.com/2013/ ... de-becker/

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 5:53 am 
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http://www.military.com/spouse/military ... -safe.html

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:33 pm 
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Funny , I do public speaking for work. I wonder if martial arts made me confident enough to choose this as a career...lol

I wonder where death while public speaking ranks on that list !!! LOL
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The fear of death is irrational. If we believe modern religion we go to paradise when we die ...If allah is our choice we hang out with a 'bunch of virgins'. If we go with the athiest take then the lights just go out....I understand disapointment, but fear ....????

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2014 2:56 am 
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Glad you like "Primal Freeze", Robb.

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 Post subject: Re: help with symantics
PostPosted: Sat May 31, 2014 9:14 pm 
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Taken to the extreme, the freeze in some literature has been likened to tonic immobility


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